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Thread: Fascism: Would it work.

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    [quote=John2.0;1058771880]Many authoritarian regimes have ran governments to the betterment of the nation. Just look at the Spanish Miracle.Fascism has a similar problem

    Many democrats also had/have the interests of their people in mind Look at the Founding Fathers. There will be self serving leaders in both systems

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    The Constitution doesn't work, there is still cronyism in the United States, just look at the bailouts. Also, just take a look at how the constitution was trampled on during the Civil War.
    Fascism has a similar problem. It still allows for the trampling of human rights and a whole other group of problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    With the support of the people.
    Again Constitution. If you want to pull out how it was trampled, look at how Fascist rulers trampled over the rights of civilized society.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    It is widely recognized that the Germans and Italians ran very efficient economies.
    It is widely recognized that they were not able to really pull out of the Depression. Poverty remained.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    Plenty of democracies have problems with rebellions and military cues as well. In fact, that's how many fascist regimes came to power.
    Never said that they didn't. You're the one who asserted that Fascism would fix this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    Yes, modern liberals and Neo-Conservatives are very close to being fascist parties.
    No they are not. They don't favor economic planning, restrictions of freedom of speech, or a whole host of things. Face it, Hamilton wasn't a Fascist.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    Fire bombings, and mad men, have nothing to do with fascism.
    You are the one who brought it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    Actually, if the war had dragged on a little longer, the Germans would have won.
    Germany had absolutely no economic base to carry out war. It's men and resources were depleted. The Weremacht in the Battle of Berlin fought with old men and boys. Defeat was inevitable. They were close to the A-Bomb, but so was America.


    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    So, the fascists never had hyperinflation.
    When did I say that they did? Most democracies never had it either. Germany only experienced it as a result of war reparations.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    No Fascist government has ever failed, all of them were destroyed from without, or gave up their power voluntarily.
    Because there were very short-lived and few in number. Again, why is crushing opposition leaders in the best interests of the people?

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    No, they were just out numbered.
    The Japanese were able to overrun China for a while. Finland almost defeated the USSR. Numbers aren't everything.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    Many democrats also had/have the interests of their people in mind Look at the Founding Fathers. There will be self serving leaders in both systems
    Yes, but democracies always fail because they put special interest groups ahead of the greater good. It is only when a strong authoritarian leader steps in and takes care of business that anything gets one in a democracy. Just look at the civil war. Abraham Lincoln was probably the most fascist leader we ever had.

    Fascism has a similar problem. It still allows for the trampling of human rights and a whole other group of problems.
    Both systems allow for trampling of rights, that was my point.

    I would also ask you how exactly you know that these supposed "rights" actually exist.

    Again Constitution. If you want to pull out how it was trampled, look at how Fascist rulers trampled over the rights of civilized society.
    The point is that the constitution has never been shown to actually restrain anything the US government does. The congress constantly violates the constitution, and then makes up lame excuses for breaking their own laws. This proves that the constitution is nothing but an empty document.

    It is widely recognized that they were not able to really pull out of the Depression. Poverty remained.
    Still did better than the Weimer republic, an poverty is not an indicator of economic efficieny.

    [quote]Never said that they didn't. You're the one who asserted that Fascism would fix this problem.[/.quote]

    No, I said fascism ensures that a strong government that is very unlikely to be overthrown. Again, show me one fascist government that was ever overthrown in a cue or rebellion.

    Germany had absolutely no economic base to carry out war. It's men and resources were depleted. The Weremacht in the Battle of Berlin fought with old men and boys. Defeat was inevitable. They were close to the A-Bomb, but so was America.
    This doesn't prove anything. Prove that the German military was weaker than the allies because of fascism, and not other factors.

    When did I say that they did? Most democracies never had it either. Germany only experienced it as a result of war reparations.
    No fascist government has ever had a failed economy, but democratic economies fail all the time.

    Because there were very short-lived and few in number.
    So.

    Again, why is crushing opposition leaders in the best interests of the people?
    It ensures stability, and leads to a strong economy and a prosperous nation.


    The Japanese were able to overrun China for a while. Finland almost defeated the USSR. Numbers aren't everything.
    Not comparable.

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    Historically, it looks like fascism comes to power when a nation is in trouble, but rarely stays in power for too long.

    Some relatively peaceful fascist regimes work at fixing the problems in the nation that eluded the previous government, with some measure of success in some cases, and then eventually hand the reins of power back to a democratic system, willingly or through collapse following a leader's death.

    Others seem to go off on wars of conquest, and in their overconfidence they overextend until they generate enough opposition to get themselves destroyed.

    Neither of these types of examples seems to indicate that fascism is a type of government that can be stable long-term. The kind of expansionism engaged in by the Nazis, Italians and Japanese eventually end in defeat.

    Absent that expansionism, "the people" put up with fascism while times are hard, but then when times get better they want their freedom back.

    Fascism seems more like a short-term attempt at a solution when democracies get too screwed up to self-repair, rather than a long-term stable system of governance.

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."


    False. Your again talking about Nazism, not fascism. As a matter of fact, there were many fascist regimes that were not racist. For example, the Austrian Fascists under Doflus were very tolerant of jews, and did not display any desire for a master race.

    False. Many fascist regimes were non-violent, including Franco's Spain, Salazar Portugal, Dolfus Austria, Greece and many others.


    No they did not. They gave up their power willingly. No fascist regime was ever removed by the people.

    The KKK is not Fascist, it is racist, the two are not necessarily synonymous.

    False. Many fascist regimes came to power through civil war.
    Fascism is not an authoritarian dictatorship. Those examples you listed are examples of authoritarian dictatorships, they failed to radicalize, they are not fascists. The KKK is a perfect example of fascism, as is Nazi Germany, as is Italy under Mussolini. Fascism has nothing to do with corporatism and everything to do with a radical political behavior. Your question from the start of the thread should have been: Dictatorships, can they work?
    Last edited by drz-400; 05-26-10 at 09:09 PM.

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    From wikipedia.

    Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2][3][4] Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives, values, and systems such as the political system and the economy.[5][6] Fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined left-wing and right-wing political views, but gravitated to the political right in the early 1920s.[7][8] Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum.[9][10][11][12][13][14]

    Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[15] They claim that culture is created by collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus rejects individualism.[15] In viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they claim that pluralism is a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.[16][17] They advocate the creation of a single-party state.[18] Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[19] They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[20]

    Fascists reject and resist autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated.[21] They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and threat to the nation.[21]

    Fascism is strongly opposed to core aspects of the Enlightenment and is an opponent of liberalism, Marxism, and mainstream socialism for being associated with failures that fascists claim are inherent in the Enlightenment.[22] Fascists view egalitarianism, materialism, and rationalism as failed elements of the Enlightenment.[23] In contrast, Fascists promote action, discipline, hierarchy, spirit, and will.[24] They oppose liberalism — as a bourgeois movement — and Marxism — as a proletarian movement — for being exclusive economic class-based movements.[25] Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes ending economic class conflict to secure national solidarity.[26] They believe that economic classes are not capable of properly governing a nation, and that a merit-based aristocracy of experienced military persons must rule through regimenting a nation's forces of production and securing the nation's independence.[27]

    Fascism perceives conservatism as partly valuable for its support of order in society but opposes its typical opposition to change and modernization.[28] Fascism presents itself as a solution to the perceived benefits and disadvantages of conservatism by advocating state-controlled modernization that promotes orderly change while resisting the dangers of pluralism and independent initiative to order in society.[28]

    Fascists support a "Third Position" in economic policy, which they believe superior to both the rampant individualism of laissez-faire capitalism and the severe control of state socialism.[29][30]

    Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II and the publicity surrounding the atrocities committed during the period of fascist governments, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word,[31] often referring to widely varying movements across the political spectrum.[32]
    ... looks like this was written by a fascist or an admirer of fascism. 'Rampant' individualism? 'Severe' state control? Adjectives on fascism's terms.
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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    Fascism is not an authoritarian dictatorship. Those examples you listed are examples of authoritarian dictatorships, they failed to radicalize, they are not fascists. The KKK is a perfect example of fascism, as is Nazi Germany, as is Italy under Mussolini. Fascism has nothing to do with corporatism and everything to do with a radical political behavior. Your question from the start of the thread should have been: Dictatorships, can they work?
    This is blatantly false. Fascism is an an economic ideology. Benito Mussolini was the founder of fascism, and he himself said it was corporatism. The examples you mentioned were fascist states, by there own admission. The KKK is not fascist because it pre-dates fascism. Racism is older than fascism. As is radicalism. Your attempt to claim that these regimes were "not" fascist is pathetic. It would be like saying the soviet union wasn't really communist.

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    I hate copying and pasting quotes, so I'll just post here. You point out numerous problems with democracies. I'll admit, that many of the criticisms are well founded, but the thing is, fascism has the same problems. You have corruption, violence (sometimes from without and sometimes from within when fascists repress certain groups), overcontrolling people's lives in both systems.

    Fascism operates off of the assumption that people are too savage, ignorant, or immoral to govern themselves so someone has to do it for them. What I never got about this Hobbesianism is that the leaders are themselves imperfect humans. They are not only subject to to the same limitations of their subjects, but these people have to govern other people's lies. People are so diverse, in so many different situations, that usually even the savage, ignorant, and immoral now their lives and how to fit into society far better than any distant government. That is why Fascism doesn't work.
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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    This is blatantly false. Fascism is an an economic ideology. Benito Mussolini was the founder of fascism, and he himself said it was corporatism. The examples you mentioned were fascist states, by there own admission. The KKK is not fascist because it pre-dates fascism. Racism is older than fascism. As is radicalism. Your attempt to claim that these regimes were "not" fascist is pathetic. It would be like saying the soviet union wasn't really communist.
    Fascism has its roots in America in the KKK. The original version of the KKK had many similarities with fascism and is very similar to the early fascists in Europe, and the KKK in the 20's defenitely was fascist. Fascism is hardly an ideology and even less so an economic one. Different Fascist regimes have hardley any universal value other than social darwinism. So unless you are going to say Mussolini was the only fascist cannot agree with your opinion. Corporatism was used in Italy, but I don't think it is an essential part to understanding fascism. It was probobly used as a practical way to unite the country towards the leaders goal.
    Last edited by drz-400; 05-26-10 at 11:25 PM.

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    Fascism has its roots in America in the KKK.
    That's nonsense. Prove it.

    Fascism is hardly an ideology and even less so an economic one.
    Fascism was an ideology. It was founded by Benito Mussolini, he was the one who coined the term. All regimes which called themselves "fascist" believed in corporatism. You're attempt to try and turn Fascism into some kind of racial supremecist ideology is pathetic.

    Corporatism was used in Italy, but I don't think it is an essential part to understanding fascism.
    No, all fascist regimes embraced corporatism and used it in their rhetoric. By the way, Italian fascism was not founded on racial supieriority.

    It was probobly used as a practical way to unite the country towards the leaders goal.
    No, Mussolini said it was the "proper" term for fascism, as did other fascist leaders.

    Your analysis of fascism is blatantly wrong, you obviously dont have much experience on this topic, and are just going off common myths that you have heard in popular culture.
    Last edited by John2.0; 05-27-10 at 12:01 AM.

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    Re: Fascism: Would it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by John2.0 View Post
    That's nonsense. Prove it.
    You could just look at the many similarities.

    ...It is further back in American history that one comes upon the earliest phenomenon that seems functionally related to fascism: the Ku Klux Klan. Just after the Civil War, some Confederate officers, fearing the vote given to African Americans by the Radical Reconstructionists in 1867, set up a militia to restore an overturned social order. The Klan constituted an alternate civic authority, parallel to the legal state, which, in its founders' eyes, no longer defended their community's legitimate interests. In its adoption of a uniform (white robe and hood), as well as its techniques of intimidation and its conviction that violence was justified in the cause of the group's destiny, the first version of the Klan in the defeated American South was a remarkable preview of the way fascist movements were to function in interwar Europe. -Robert Paxton, the anatomy of fascism

    Fascism was an ideology. It was founded by Benito Mussolini, he was the one who coined the term. All regimes which called themselves "fascist" believed in corporatism. You're attempt to try and turn Fascism into some kind of racial supremecist ideology is pathetic.
    In no other place did fascist regimes differ more than in economic policy. It was used as a way to unite the nation and further its interests. Corporatism in Mussolini's case was a means to an end and is in no way a necessary condition for a group to be considered fascist.


    No, all fascist regimes embraced corporatism and used it in their rhetoric. By the way, Italian fascism was not founded on racial supieriority.
    It does not have to be racial superiority. They all do feel they are the victims of national decline however, and they are not afraid to use violence against those who they feel are contributing to the decline or oppose them from achieving their "destiny."

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