• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

Which of the following Libertarian Party Issues do you support(Libertarian only vote)


  • Total voters
    31
In what way? All business is aided in some way by government. Could the government have helped the Rockefellers and others who created big monopolies during the rise of the robber barons? Sure could have. But that doesn't mean that without government intervention in the market that they can't occur. In fact, it could be nothing but the opposite.

Monopolies can not form without governmental intervention.


There are no mechanisms in place to prevent collusion, price setting, unfair business practices, etc. Lasizze-faire can do nothing but push towards monopoly and oligopoly.

Um no market competition is the check on monopoly. If price setting occurred between a group of companies then a smaller company would come in and undercut them and those businesses who engaged in setting prices would quickly find themselves out of business. Price setting is only effective because the state protects the large corporations against smaller competitors.
 
he only got into politics after forming de beers, it had no government help in forming, thus providing an example of a monopoly that formed without government help.

The monopoly didn't form until after he got his royal charters nor could it have formed without said charters.
 
Redress.


Your poll is a bit too black and white for me......

Rev, I took each issue from the Libertarian party website, and included the link so you could see what they meant by each. The idea is to see how people line up with the Libertarian party itself.
 
Rev, I took each issue from the Libertarian party website, and included the link so you could see what they meant by each. The idea is to see how people line up with the Libertarian party itself.





Ahh. ok.... Well in that case, as I am sure you would agree. Libertarians like democrats, republicans, constitutionalists, etc. don't have to agree 100% with the whole of a platform or to the degree they put it.
 
Monopolies can not form without governmental intervention.

They can also form without it. Especially without it. There are a lot of things that business can interfere with and yes they can encourage monopoly and oligopoly as well. But it is possible to use government to dissuade from these as well. With no government, you're guaranteed monopoly and oligopoly.


Um no market competition is the check on monopoly. If price setting occurred between a group of companies then a smaller company would come in and undercut them and those businesses who engaged in setting prices would quickly find themselves out of business. Price setting is only effective because the state protects the large corporations against smaller competitors.

You do know how this works right? The monopoly and oligopoly are the entities with all the leverage. If small business comes about, they undercut. The established entity already in control of most of the market share can take hits to profit to drive out competition. You kill off the little guys as they emerge, when not threatened by little guys you price fix. Your "market competition" doesn't exist in Laizze-faire. It's killed as soon as it makes the scene. This is how monopoly and oligopoly work. We've seen it before, measured. Been there done that. This is the real world, and in the real world laizze-faire does not work, it cannot ensure free market capitalism. Small amount of government regulation is necessary to ensure the free market.
 
Ahh. ok.... Well in that case, as I am sure you would agree. Libertarians like democrats, republicans, constitutionalists, etc. don't have to agree 100% with the whole of a platform or to the degree they put it.

Absolutely true, and I am not trying to imply otherwise.
 
Laissez Faire capitalism
In favor of regulation, not in favor of interventions/distortions. In my view free market capitalism is mainly about avoiding government intervention.
I don't see how we could escape regulation, I'm a libertarian not a anarchist.

End drug prohibition
Yes, end it.

avoid interventionism in foreign policy
No and I don't believe that's a libertarian view either. I'm sure many american lbertarians embrace isiolationist views but those are typical for the american situation. We (the dutch) don't have a big international role, non interventionism wont result in a smaller government here.

End foreign aid
Yes, let people be charitable with their own money.

End gun bans
No, true heroes use a sword.

Deregulate healthcare
No, healthcare is not a consumer good, we shouldn't treat it as such.

Semi-amnesty for illegal aliens(work for amnesty)
In a perfect world yes, no bounderies. Since this is not a perfect world, we should be pragmatic about manmade borders. Amnesty will inspire more aliens to become illegal, so no.

End welfare
No, chances are that's going to cost a society more. Besides, people on welfare spend 99% of their budget on basic needs, spend it in the society that provides for it. As long as there's enough incentive to work, I don't mind a safety net.


Allow opting out of Social Security
No because if you fail to provide for yourself you will become a burden to others. Let everyone pay.
 
Last edited:
They can also form without it. Especially without it.

Name a monopoly that has ever formed without governmental intervention. All monopolies have formed with the aid of the state.

There are a lot of things that business can interfere with and yes they can encourage monopoly and oligopoly as well. But it is possible to use government to dissuade from these as well. With no government, you're guaranteed monopoly and oligopoly.

Monopolies can not form without state intervention.


You do know how this works right? The monopoly and oligopoly are the entities with all the leverage. If small business comes about, they undercut. The established entity already in control of most of the market share can take hits to profit to drive out competition. You kill off the little guys as they emerge, when not threatened by little guys you price fix. Your "market competition" doesn't exist in Laizze-faire. It's killed as soon as it makes the scene. This is how monopoly and oligopoly work. We've seen it before, measured. Been there done that. This is the real world, and in the real world laizze-faire does not work, it cannot ensure free market capitalism. Small amount of government regulation is necessary to ensure the free market.


The little guy gets killed off before they can even enter the market because of barriers to entry created by the state. Predatory pricing is a myth, and there is 0 empirical evidence for any company ever having raised prices after vanquishing the competition:

The Myth of Predatory Pricing

by Thomas J. DiLorenzo

Thomas J. DiLorenzo holds the Scott L. Probasco, Jr., Chair of Free Enterprise at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga.

Executive Summary

The attempt to reduce or to eliminate predatory pricing is also likely to reduce or eliminate com petitive pricing beneficial to consumers.
--Harold Demsetz

Predatory pricing is one of the oldest big business conspiracy theories. It was popularized in the late 19th century by journalists such as Ida Tarbell, who in History of the Standard Oil Company excoriated John D. Rockefeller because Standard Oil's low prices had driven her brother's employer, the Pure Oil Company, from the petroleum-refining business.(1) "Cutting to Kill" was the title of the chapter in which Tarbell condemned Standard Oil's allegedly predatory price cutting................

...........................

The Futile Search for a Predatory Pricer

Even though predatory pricing was part of the theoretical underpinning of the original federal antitrust laws, and there have been hundreds of federal antitrust cases based on claims of predatory pricing, economists and legal scholars have to this day failed to provide an unambiguous example of a single monopoly created by predatory pricing. (In contrast, no such ambiguity exists in the case of government-sanctioned monopolies created by protectionism, exclusive franchising, grandfather clauses, occupational licensing, and other government-imposed barriers to competition.)

The theory of predatory pricing is no longer widely accepted by economists, but it was the conventional wisdom before McGee's 1958 article. The economics profession--and antitrust practitioners--accepted the notion as a matter of faith even though no one (before McGee) had conducted a systematic economic analysis of predatory pricing.

By 1970 more than 120 federal (and thousands of private) antitrust cases in which predatory pricing was alleged had been brought under the 1890 Sherman Act. Yet in a 1970 study of the so-called gunpowder trust--43 corporations in the explosives industry--Kenneth Elzinga stated, after an extensive literature search, that "to my knowledge no one has ever examined in detail, as McGee did, other alleged incidents of predatory pricing."(21) Elzinga found no evidence that the gunpowder trust--which had been accused of predatory pricing--actually practiced it.

Shortly after Elzinga's work appeared, Ronald H. Koller examined the "123 federal antitrust cases since the passage of the Sherman Act in 1890 in which it was alleged that behavior generally resembling predation had played a significant role."(22) Ninety-five of those cases resulted in convictions, even though in only 26 of the cases was there a trial that "produced a factual record adequate for the kind of analysis employed" by Koller.(23) Apparently, many of the defendants decided it was cheaper to plead guilty than to defend themselves.

Even though no systematic analysis of predatory pricing was performed in any of the 123 cases, Koller established the following criteria for independently determining whether a monopoly was established by predatory pricing: Did the accused predator reduce its price to less than its short-run average total cost? If so, did it appear to have done so with a predatory intent? Did the reduction in price succeed in eliminating a competitor, precipitating a merger, or improving "market discipline"?

Koller's criteria give predatory pricing theory more credit than it deserves. As was explained earlier, below- cost pricing per se is not necessarily a sign of predatory behavior; it is a normal feature of competitive markets. Moreover, determining predatory intent is an exercise that is far beyond the capabilities of any economist and for which mystics might be better suited. And "eliminating a competitor" is the very purpose of all competition.

Employing those criteria for determining predatory behavior, Koller found that below-cost pricing "seems to have been at least attempted" in only seven cases.(24) That, of course, proves nothing about monopolizing behavior, given the fact that below-cost pricing can be just as easily construed as competitive behavior. Koller claims that in four of the cases low prices seemed to have been motivated by the desire to eliminate a rival. One would hope so! The entire purpose of competitive behavior--whether cutting prices or improving product quality--is to eliminate one's rivals.

Even in the cases where a competitor seemed to have been eliminated by low prices, "in no case were all of the competitors eliminated."(25) Thus, there was no monopoly, just lower prices. Three cases seem to have facilitated a merger, but mergers are typically an efficient alternative to bankruptcy, not a route to monopoly. In those cases, as in the others, the mergers did not result in anything remotely resembling a monopolistic industry, as defined by Koller (i.e., one with a single producer).

In sum, despite over 100 federal antitrust cases based on predatory pricing, Koller found absolutely no evidence of any monopoly having been established by predatory pricing between 1890 and 1970. Yet at the time Koller's study was published (1971), predatory pricing had long been part of the conventional wisdom. The work of McGee, Elzinga, and other analysts had not yet gained wide recognition.

The search for the elusive predatory pricer has not been any more successful in the two decades since Koller's study appeared. The complete lack of evidence of predatory pricing, moreover, has not gone unnoticed by the U.S. Supreme Court. In Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co. v. Zenith Radio (1986), the Court demonstrated knowledge of the above-mentioned research in declaring, effectively, that predatory pricing was about as common as unicorn sightings.

Zenith had accused Matsu****a and several other Japanese microelectronics companies of engaging in predatory pricing--of using profits from the Japanese market to subsidize below-cost pricing of color television sets in the United States. The Supreme Court ruled against Zenith, recognizing in its majority opinion that

a predatory pricing conspiracy is by nature speculative. Any agreement to price below the competitive level requires the conspirators to forgo profits that free competition would offer them. The forgone profits may be considered an investment in the future. For the investment to be rational, the conspirators must have a reasonable expectation of recovering, in the form of later monopoly profits, more than the losses suffered.(26)

The Court also noted that "the success of such schemes is inherently uncertain: the short-run loss is definite, but the long-run gain depends on successfully neutralizing the competition."(27) The Court continues, "There is a consensus among commentators that predatory pricing schemes are rarely tried, and even more rarely successful."(28)

In that case, Zenith and RCA were obviously attempting to use the antitrust laws, via their accusation of predatory pricing, to eliminate some of their foreign competition. The Court determined, for example, that "two decades after their conspiracy is alleged to have commenced, petitioners appear to be far from achieving their goal: the two largest shares of the retail market in television sets are held by RCA and . . . Zenith, not by any of the petitioners."(29) Moreover, the share of the market held by Zenith and RCA "did not decline . . . during the 1970s," which provides further evidence that "the conspiracy does not in fact exist."(30)

The Court concluded by warning potential litigants of the folly of bringing predatory pricing cases.

Cutting prices in order to increase business often is the very essence of competition. Thus, mistaken inferences in cases such as this one are especially costly, because they chill the very conduct the antitrust laws are designed to protect.(31)

Since predatory pricing schemes "require conspirators to suffer losses in order eventually to realize . . . gains," the Court concluded that "economic realities tend to make predatory pricing conspiracies self-deterring."(32)

What predatory pricing comes down to is a theory and a legal doctrine that are still used by inefficient firms to try to get the coercive powers of government to attain for them what they cannot attain in the marketplace. As former Federal Trade Commission chairman James Miller has written, government has all too often used predatory pricing as a vehicle for instructing businesses to "stop competing, leave your competitors alone, raise your prices."(33)


........................................

Conclusions

.........................................

Harold Demsetz is right. The attempt to reduce or eliminate so-called predatory pricing will only eliminate competitive pricing, which is beneficial to consumers.(53) Predatory pricing is simply illogical, although there are some highly stylized economic models that claim that it is feasible under certain assumptions. Other research has shown, however, that predatory pricing cannot even be replicated under laboratory conditions by "experimental" economics.(54) In either case, an unambiguous example of a free-market monopoly that was established as a result of predatory pricing has yet to be found.

Unfortunately, the doctrine of predatory pricing still motivates antitrust suits and other protectionist pleadings. Significantly, it is legislation and regulation enacted in the name of predatory pricing (not predatory pricing itself) that are truly monopolizing. Government--not the free market--is the source of monopoly.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-169.html

Predatory prosecution

Thomas Sowell

Obviously, predatory pricing pays off only if the surviving predator can then raise prices enough to recover the previous losses, making enough extra profit thereafter to justify the risks. These risks are not small.

However, even the demise of a competitor does not leave the survivor home free. Bankruptcy does not by itself destroy the fallen competitor's physical plant or the people whose skills made it a viable business. Both may be available-perhaps at distress prices-to others who can spring up to take the defunct firm's place.

The Washington Post went bankrupt in 1933, though not because of predatory pricing. But neither its physical plant, its people, or its name disappeared into thin air. Instead, publisher Eugene Meyer acquired all three-at a fraction of what he had bid unsuccessfully for the same newspaper just four years earlier. In the course of time, the Post became the biggest newspaper in Washington.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0503/6309089a.html
 
Last edited:
I'm a strong supporter of anti-trust laws, as the free market depends upon robust competition to work at an optimal level and monopolies are a antithesis of competition. I'm for reasonable safety standards since many defects or unsafe issues are easily concealed from the consumer, making it impossible for them to make an informed choice.

Were we better off because we broke apart Standard Oil?

I recogonize that pollution has a cost to all of us (aka society, a word so many libertarians seem to hate) and it is not accounted for in the price a company charges. Its called an externality cost and government is well suited to account for that cost through regulations. I recognize the market can fail - imagine the disaster that private roads would be. And government again is the ideal body to step in fill the gap left by those failures.

We have the externality because we, as property owners, are not allowed to impose it on the company as we should. Blame the legal system.

End Welfare: I'm not opposed to offering some government assistance to the truly disabled. History has shown that private charity alone is not sufficient. I'm also not opposed to creating a tempory program designed to help people who have fallen on hard times get back on their feet. I'm strongly opposed to allowing able bodied individuals become long term dependents of the state.

Proof? And furthermore, proof that now although we are even richer that we wouldn't be able to do it voluntarily now?

How about requiring work for welfare?
 
Name a monopoly that has ever formed without governmental intervention. All monopolies have formed with the aid of the state.

The Robber Barons constructed quite a bit of monopoly and oligopoly. With the help of government? Certainly didn't need it.

Monopolies can not form without state intervention.

Prove it. What dynamic exists which would counter the monopoly/oligopoly formation without external government force?

The little guy gets killed off before they can even enter the market because of barriers to entry created by the state. Predatory pricing is a myth, and there is 0 empirical evidence for any company ever having raised prices after vanquishing the competition:

It's not a myth, it's been done before. It was completely within the tactics of Standard Oil and the other monopolies of the time.
 
It's not a myth, it's been done before. It was completely within the tactics of Standard Oil and the other monopolies of the time.

But was Standard Oil a monopoly for bad reasons?

The Gates-Rockefeller Myth - Thomas J. DiLorenzo - Mises Daily

"Standard Oil was such an extraordinarily efficient company that even Rockefeller’s harshest journalistic critic, Ida Tarbell, described it as "a marvelous example of economy." The efficiencies of economies of scale and vertical integration caused the price of refined petroleum to fall from over 30 cents per gallon in 1869 to 10 cents by 1874, and to 5.9 cents in 1897. During the same period Rockefeller reduced his average costs from 3 cents to 0.29 cents per gallon.

The industry’s output of refined petroleum increased rapidly throughout this period--just the opposite of what mainstream monopoly theory would predict. In 1911, the year in which the federal government forced the breakup of Standard Oil, the company faced fierce competition from Associated Oil and Gas, Texaco, Gulf, and 147 other independent refineries. Because of this competition Standard Oil’s market share fell from 88 percent in 1890 to a mere 11 percent by 1911."

Huh, I guess we didn't need anti-trust laws for Standard Oil.
 
Maybe, maybe not (Standard Oil, BTW, is not the only monopoly/oligopoly from the region). It could have gotten there for good reason. Once there it can become corrupt. The point is that it stifles the market and prevents proper competition from being in place. With no government regulation, it's going to automatically fall to the monopoly/oligopoly state quickly. Maybe quicker than with government intervention. If the goal is free market capitalism, then one has to put in the necessary tools to prevent monopoly. That takes some amount of government oversight. Laizze-faire will not end in good places, we've seen this.
 
The point is that a monopoly cannot stop competition. Standard Oil only had the dominant position when they were most efficient. The competition was right there to step in when Standard Oil slipped up.

The point remains, as Agent Ferris states. The only monopolies that ever existed were propped up by the government.
 
But even if the existing monopolies we have were "propped up" by government; it still doesn't mean that absent of government there will be no monopoly. In fact, that makes no sense. There are plenty of things which monopolies can do to prevent fair competition and keep a large portion of the market to themselves. And a company may be innovative and new and drive to the top; but that doesn't mean that it's going to behave properly and within the confines of proper free market capitalism. Standard Oil held its position through resource and consumer outlet control in part. This was a time when there was very little government "propping up". The Rail roads turned into the perfect example of oligopoly, oil turned into monopoly, steel, banking, commodity, etc fell into various forms of monopoly and oligopoly without much government interference at all. It wasn't until the government go involved in which it was able to clear out a lot of the unfair business practices and open up the markets to actual competition.
 
Moderator's Warning:
As a heads up please be mindful of our rules, specifically for Fair Use. Outside sources should be kept to around two paragraphs worth and then linked, not posted in entirely or barring a line or two.
 
But even if the existing monopolies we have were "propped up" by government; it still doesn't mean that absent of government there will be no monopoly. In fact, that makes no sense. There are plenty of things which monopolies can do to prevent fair competition and keep a large portion of the market to themselves. And a company may be innovative and new and drive to the top; but that doesn't mean that it's going to behave properly and within the confines of proper free market capitalism. Standard Oil held its position through resource and consumer outlet control in part. This was a time when there was very little government "propping up". The Rail roads turned into the perfect example of oligopoly, oil turned into monopoly, steel, banking, commodity, etc fell into various forms of monopoly and oligopoly without much government interference at all. It wasn't until the government go involved in which it was able to clear out a lot of the unfair business practices and open up the markets to actual competition.

The only proof of that would be if things are getting worse. Do you have any evidence that in any of these companies that things were getting worse?
 
The Robber Barons constructed quite a bit of monopoly and oligopoly. With the help of government? Certainly didn't need it.

Yes they did need the aid of the state to form those monopolies, through protectionism, exclusive franchising, grandfather clauses, occupational licensing, and various other state created barriers to entry.

Prove it. What dynamic exists which would counter the monopoly/oligopoly formation without external government force?

Market competition.

It's not a myth,

Yes it is.

it's been done before.

No it has not, did you even read the article I presented?

There is not a single instance of unambiguous monopoly forming due to price fixing.

It was completely within the tactics of Standard Oil and the other monopolies of the time.

That is simply false:

The Irrationality of Predatory Pricing

The classic article on predatory pricing was written by economist John McGee in 1958.(4) McGee examined the famous 1911 Standard Oil antitrust decision that required John D. Rockefeller to divest his company. Although at that time popular folklore held that Rockefeller had "monopolized" the oil refinery business by predatory pricing, McGee showed that Standard Oil did not engage in predatory pricing; it would have been irrational to have done so.

Judging from the record, Standard Oil did not use predatory price discrimination to drive out competing refiners, nor did its pricing practice have that effect. Whereas there may be a very few cases in which retail kerosene peddlers or dealers went out of business after or during price cutting, there is no real proof that Standard's pricing policies were responsible. I am convinced that Standard did not systematically, if ever, use local price cutting in retailing, or anywhere else, to reduce competition. To do so would have been foolish; and, whatever else has been said about them, the old Standard organization was seldom criticized for making less money when it could readily have made more.(5)

McGee was the first economist to think through the logic of predatory pricing, laying aside the emotional rhetoric that had always surrounded it. He concluded that not only would it have been foolish for Standard Oil to have engaged in predatory pricing; it would also be irrational for any business to attempt to monopolize a market in that way.

In the first place, such practices are very costly for the large firm, which is always assumed to be the predator. If price is set below average cost, the largest firm will incur the largest losses by virtue of having the largest volume of sales. Losing a dollar on each of 1,000 widgets sold per month is more costly than losing a dollar on each of 100 widgets.

Second, there is great uncertainty about how long a price war would last. The prospect of incurring losses indefinitely in the hope of someday being able to charge monopolistic prices will give any business person pause. A price war is an extremely risky venture.

Standard Oil was not the only trust accused of predatory pricing; antitrust folklore has it that virtually all of the late-19th-century trusts were guilty of the practice. However, as I have shown elsewhere, the industries accused of becoming monopolies during the congressional debates on the 1890 Sherman Antitrust Act all dropped their prices more rapidly than the general price level fell during the 10 years before the Sherman Act.(6) It would certainly have been irrational for those businesses to have engaged in predatory pricing for an entire decade in the dim hope of someday being able to charge prices slightly above the competitive market rate.

Third, there is nothing stopping the competition (or "prey") from temporarily shutting down and waiting for the price to return to profitable levels. If that strategy is employed, price competition will render the predatory pricing strategy unprofitable--all loss and no compensatory benefit. Alternatively, even if the preyed-upon firms went bankrupt, other firms could purchase their facilities and compete with the alleged predator. Such competition is virtually guaranteed if the predator is charging monopolistic prices and earning above-normal profits.

Fourth, there is the danger that the price war will spread to surrounding markets and cause the alleged predator to incur losses in those markets as well
.

Fifth, the theory of predatory pricing assumes the prior existence of a "war chest of monopoly profits" that the predator can use to subsidize its practice of pricing below average cost. But how does that war chest come into being if the firm has not yet become a monopoly? That part of the theory is simply a non sequitur.

Finally, the opportunity cost of the funds allegedly used to try to bankrupt rivals must be taken into account. For predatory pricing to seem rational, the rate of return on predation must be higher than the market rate of inter- est; in fact, it must be higher than the expected rate of return on any other investment the predator might make, including "investment" in lobbying for protectionism, monop- oly franchises, and the like. Predation is unlikely, given the great uncertainties about whether it would have any positive return at all.
 
Maybe, maybe not (Standard Oil, BTW, is not the only monopoly/oligopoly from the region). It could have gotten there for good reason. Once there it can become corrupt. The point is that it stifles the market and prevents proper competition from being in place. With no government regulation, it's going to automatically fall to the monopoly/oligopoly state quickly. Maybe quicker than with government intervention. If the goal is free market capitalism, then one has to put in the necessary tools to prevent monopoly. That takes some amount of government oversight. Laizze-faire will not end in good places, we've seen this.

Standard Oil was never a full monopoly and the monopoly began to break up long before the government stepped in:

2. The Standard Oil Monopoly

John D. Rockefeller, who in the 1860s founded what was to become Standard Oil, resolved, as John Chamberlain put it, “to ‘stabilize’ the oil market by eliminating competition.”[2] Between 1860 and 1870, Standard Oil’s share of the market rose from less than I0 per cent to nearly 90 per cent. During the so-called “oil war” of the 1870s, Standard began to buy out its competitors. Those who refused to sell were often driven out of business by Standard’s prices. But the reason Standard was able to “buy out” so many of its competitors—by 1874 it had purchased 21 of the 26 Cleveland refineries—was that given the depressed state of the oil market at this time many wanted to be bought out and, as D. T. Armentano noted, the simple fact of the matter is that “the original cost of a refinery in 1865 was irrelevant in 1875” and Standard “paid the best market prices for properties that were almost bankrupt and so inefficient that most were subsequently closed down by Standard.”[3]

Legend has it that those who refused to be bought out were driven out of business by Standard’s “predatory pricing,” i.e., selling below cost to drive competitors into bankruptcy and then exploiting the monopoly position by raising prices. There is no doubt that Rockefeller was a “savage competitor.” But it is equally clear that Standard Oil did not practice predatory pricing. Such a policy, John McGee has pointed out, “would have been foolish; and, whatever else was said about them, the old Standard organization was seldom criticized for making less money when it could readily have made more.”[4]

For one thing a policy of predatory pricing is very costly, and its cost is directly proportional to the firm’s share of the market. Thus, predatory pricing is most costly to the largest firm in the industry since it has the largest share of the business. Losing more money than any other firm in the industry is hardly a way to establish “market dominance.” Second, the notion of predatory pricing is logically flawed since it assumes “a ‘war chest’ of monopoly profits to see the firm through the costly battles,” thereby implying that it already possesses the very monopoly the policy is supposed to achieve.[5]

Rather, in an industry characterized by waste and inefficiency, Rockefeller made Standard a model of efficiency and innovation. Standard Oil was the first firm in the industry to emphasize research, the fast to expand its operations beyond the Appalachian area, the pioneer in developing overseas markets, in exploiting economies of scale, and in developing new marketing techniques. Thus, while the price of kerosene fell from 26 cents to 8 cents a gallon between 1870 and 1885, Standard was able to reduce its costs from 3 cents a gallon in 1870 to .45 cents in 1885. Standard, notes Armentano, “was relatively efficient, and its efficiency was being translated to the consumer in the form of lower prices for a much improved product, and to the firm in the form of additional profits.”[6] Standard Oil’s success resulted not from the illogical notion of predatory pricing but from the efficiency of its operation.

Nevertheless, even at the height of its success Standard was never able to fully monopolize the market. Between 1880 and 1895 Standard’s share of the refining market fell from about 90 per cent to 82 per cent despite the fact that during the same period it reduced its prices from 9 1/8 cents a gallon to only 5.91 cents. Standard’s share of the market began to decline rapidly after 1900, i.e., well before the court-ordered dissolution of the “monopoly” in 1911, when gas and electricity began to cut deeply into kerosene sales. And the discovery of huge oil reserves in Texas, Oklahoma, and California—reserves which literally dwarfed those in the oil regions of Pennsylvania—further undercut Standard’s position. By 1901, John Chamberlain has written, “the Rockefellers could no more dominate oil than King Canute could dominate the tides.”[7]

Clearly, it was the free market, not the courts, which thwarted Standard Oil’s attempts to monopolize the oil industry. Even more importantly, the case of Standard demonstrates that there is nothing evil or pernicious about a free market “monopoly.” On the contrary, the consumers were the chief beneficiaries since the pinnacle of Standard’s success coincided with the lowest prices in the history of the industry. In short, so long as there are no legal barriers to entry, i.e., so long as the market is free, no firm, even if it is the sole producer, can prosper unless it is able to benefit the consumers better than its competitors, actual or potential.

Voluntary and Coercive Cartels: The Case of Oil | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty

In fact in the case of the oil industry it was big oil with the aid of the state that engaged in artificial price fixing through the National Industrial Recovery Act and when that was declared unconstitutional the Transportation of Petroleum Products Act both of which set up a system of prorationing to artificially inflate prices.
 
That's a great point, and another issue I am personally ambivalent about. On the one hand, if we keep bringing in more immigrants, we could start stressing the resources available, mostly due to our already HUGE social programs in place. If, however, we don't make welfare-type incentives an attractant to immigrants, maybe it would be okay. The problem is that we already have all those programs in place, and that won't change anytime soon.

I've always had reservations about intense border security from the get go (what if I want to sneak out?) but working with people from a myriad of South and Central American countries helped influence me more.

That and learning about those countries influenced my decision making process.

I'm against guest worker programs but am all for allowing illegals to come in and work as veggie and fruit pickers until they have stayed long enough to start a family and integrate into the U.S.

For the most part, they are excellent, dedicated and hard working people.
They are strongly family and community orientated which is what we need in this country more than anything else.
 
I've always had reservations about intense border security from the get go (what if I want to sneak out?) but working with people from a myriad of South and Central American countries helped influence me more.

...........

For the most part, they are excellent, dedicated and hard working people.
They are strongly family and community orientated which is what we need in this country more than anything else.

I find that to be true as well, but I work with MANY legal immigrants- mostly from Africa and the ME, whom I can say the same things about. Strong work ethic, strong family values, and dedication to integrating into American society. It seems that it's after a couple of generations have been here that these values start declining, unfortunately.
 
I voted for everything but amnesty and ending welfare, but even in the things I voted for I'm not necessarily in favor of taking it to the extreme the Libertarian Paty would.

Lassiez Faire Capitalism: Yes, I believe the free market is generally best left untampered with. Government regulation often has unintended consequences. Consequences that are often used as justification for further regulation. That said, certain regulations are needed.

I'm a strong supporter of anti-trust laws, as the free market depends upon robust competition to work at an optimal level and monopolies are a antithesis of competition. I'm for reasonable safety standards since many defects or unsafe issues are easily concealed from the consumer, making it impossible for them to make an informed choice.

I recogonize that pollution has a cost to all of us (aka society, a word so many libertarians seem to hate) and it is not accounted for in the price a company charges. Its called an externality cost and government is well suited to account for that cost through regulations. I recognize the market can fail - imagine the disaster that private roads would be. And government again is the ideal body to step in fill the gap left by those failures.

So while I'm for laissez faire capitalism in general, I'm not opposed to any and all government involvement in the free market.

End Drug Prohibition: Definitely favor the immediate legalization of pot. I've yet to hear an intelligent reason why it should be illegal, but alcohol and tobbacco should be legal. Harder drugs are a little harder for me to get a firm position on. Still most of the research shows that decriminalization and/or legalization has little impact on user rates and it would remove a massive source of revenue from various criminal cartels, while saving us a fortune in government expenditures.

Non-Interventionist Foreign Policy: I don't favor non-interventionism because of some principled opposition to force or initiation of force. When it comes to foreign policy, I fall firmly in the realist camp. America should promote and pursure its interests actively. I happen to believe that our interests are often best served by a non-interventionist approach. That said, certain dire circumstance could warrant intervention (a nuclear Iran for instance) or even pre-emption.

Ending Foreign Aid: Usually it ends up in the pockets of dictators anyway. I know its a tiny portion of the budget, but hey, every million helps and we need to start trimming the budget somewhere. I'm not opposed to humanitarian aid for disaster victims.

End Gun Bans: The right to bear arms is as essential, if not moreso, as the right to free speech. Gun bans don't keep guns out of the hands of criminals, since they are by definition people who have qualms about breaking the law.

Deregulate Health Care: Some tort reform would be nice also.

Amnesty: No. I'd be willing to accept a pathway to citizenship, under certain circumstances, if it came along with truly effective measures to get control of our borders. America is a soveriegn nation and it has every right to control its borders. Our economy cannot handle an unlimited influx of unskilled laborers (which is what most illegal immigrants are). Furthermore, there are legitimate security concerns as well. Open borders a pipe dream that will never happen.

End Welfare: I'm not opposed to offering some government assistance to the truly disabled. History has shown that private charity alone is not sufficient. I'm also not opposed to creating a tempory program designed to help people who have fallen on hard times get back on their feet. I'm strongly opposed to allowing able bodied individuals become long term dependents of the state.

Opting out of Social Security: Please! I want out before this giant pyramid scheme comes crashing down and my generation is the one left holding the bill.



I couldn't put it much better than that.
 
The only proof of that would be if things are getting worse. Do you have any evidence that in any of these companies that things were getting worse?

With things such as the railroad oligopoly which developed, most certainly so. The collusion reached into buying up all means of transport and storage as well. Steel, oil, other commodities all saw rise in monopoly and oligopoly during the most hands off period of time our government took towards the economic sector. It's natural progression for unbridled capitalism, and one which will often end either in the government regulating industry to promote free market or the government becoming hopelessly entangled within it and promoting corporate capitalism.
 
Didn't Agent Ferris already answer your claim about the railroads?

Yes they did need the aid of the state to form those monopolies, through protectionism, exclusive franchising, grandfather clauses, occupational licensing, and various other state created barriers to entry.

I've already shown along with Agent Ferris that Standard Oil never had a monopoly and was already losing prominence before the anti-trust case. Have an example for steel and other commodities getting monopolized during "the most hands off period of time our government took towards the economic sector?"
 
Last edited:
Didn't Agent Ferris already answer your claim about the railroads?



I've already shown along with Agent Ferris that Standard Oil never had a monopoly and was already losing prominence before the anti-trust case. Have an example for steel and other commodities getting monopolized during "the most hands off period of time our government took towards the economic sector?"

The Rail Roads are another quintessential example of state sponsored monopoly and crony corporatism, the passing of the Pacific Railways Act granted the Southern Pacific Transportation Company 30 year 6% bonds to construct the Rail Roads and 175 million acres of free public land upon which to build them. Of course no other companies were getting these bonds or these land grants and even if they could afford to build competitive rail roads without governmental investment they would need to get the Feds to seed to them the public lands in the Western Territories which of course the state would not do as the government did not want competition because then they would have more trouble getting the bonds paid back by Southern Pacific. In a free market that unused public land would have been homesteaded the second someone invested labor into building a rail road track on them and there would have been much more competition between many different firms because no single firm could afford to produce the transcontinental railroad on their own without federal investment.
 
Didn't Agent Ferris already answer your claim about the railroads?



I've already shown along with Agent Ferris that Standard Oil never had a monopoly and was already losing prominence before the anti-trust case. Have an example for steel and other commodities getting monopolized during "the most hands off period of time our government took towards the economic sector?"

No, because most of them started up independently at first. It wasn't until the oligopoly was established in which the government took over the expansion of railroad tracks. And the government regulation which occurred in the railroad industry was mostly an optimization/safety standard than it was a "propping up" of a monopoly. Steel had it's own regional monopolies as well. Monopoly and oligopoly enjoyed a brief explosion during the industrial revolution and slightly afterward till government stepped in with regulations and rules. But the Robber Barons and their monopolies were born during times of very little oversight and regulation.
 
Back
Top Bottom