View Poll Results: Which of the following Libertarian Party Issues do you support(Libertarian only vote)

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  • Laissez Faire capitalism

    31 70.45%
  • End drug prohibition

    42 95.45%
  • avoid interventionism in foreign polic

    29 65.91%
  • End foreign aid

    30 68.18%
  • End gun bans

    37 84.09%
  • Deregulate healthcare

    32 72.73%
  • Semi-amnesty for illegal aliens(work for amnesty)

    15 34.09%
  • End welfare

    30 68.18%
  • Allow opting out of Social Security

    37 84.09%
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Thread: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

  1. #61
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I can see it maybe harder to start one up since yes you'll have to compete without government favoring any one side. But I also see it as easier to keep once you've obtained. And I see nothing which would absolutely prevent them.
    You have to maintain your place at the top. Not impossible to do, you can still cheat people, but it's relatively difficult to do over the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I mean, I think a good example of your point is Microsoft. Right? They came in with an idea, a good idea, a marketable idea, and they blew up. Before you knew it, everything ran on Microsoft. Now perhaps it was all lovey dovey the way they ran; but with no government intervention Microsoft rockets past everyone else. Now they can be on top and what's to prevent them from using their resources, brand name, and power from destroying anything which threatens their base or to ensure their reign at top through deceptive and destructive market tools? Nothing. And thus the free market dies.
    Apple
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  2. #62
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I mean, I think a good example of your point is Microsoft. Right? They came in with an idea, a good idea, a marketable idea, and they blew up. Before you knew it, everything ran on Microsoft. Now perhaps it was all lovey dovey the way they ran; but with no government intervention Microsoft rockets past everyone else. Now they can be on top and what's to prevent them from using their resources, brand name, and power from destroying anything which threatens their base or to ensure their reign at top through deceptive and destructive market tools? Nothing. And thus the free market dies.
    The free market is dead because of Apple? So nobody else creates mp3 players or smart phones or laptops or computers? Seriously?

    EDIT: Nvm. I was reading too quickly. I see what you mean now. Disregard this post.
    Last edited by phattonez; 05-26-10 at 05:31 PM.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #63
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    You have to maintain your place at the top. Not impossible to do, you can still cheat people, but it's relatively difficult to do over the long run.
    Why? I see it as the opposite. Once you're on the top, you've aggregated most of the supply, production, etc. for that particular market. It's easy to control it, it's easy to prevent access to it. Furthermore, you have the resources available for deceptive practices and predatory pricing techniques; what prevents you from going down that path? I think once established, with no regulation or oversight, it's much much easier to stay on top

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Apple
    Apple has been around for a long time, but they were unable to stop the monopolization of OS that Microsoft accomplished. And they can compete better now because the government came down on Microsoft, broke it up. There was regulation and oversight. What if there were none? Would Apple still be around? Would it be as "big" as it is now? I don't think so.

    Besides, Apple sucks.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #64
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    In response to Microsoft, Linux based OS are out there, as is Apple. Mozilla is overtaking Internet Explorer. There is no such thing as a permanent monopoly except for those supported by the government. You have to remain the best in order to stay at the top.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #65
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    In response to Microsoft, Linux based OS are out there, as is Apple. Mozilla is overtaking Internet Explorer. There is no such thing as a permanent monopoly except for those supported by the government. You have to remain the best in order to stay at the top.
    Exactly. But all those things exist in a world of government oversight and regulation. We look to servo the system and try our best to maintain a free market. But what if we didn't have that oversight? What if we didn't have any regulation? What if you couldn't turn to the courts? Would Linux and Apple and all the others be around, would they be as strong? Or would the ones on top have done everything they could to mitigate the effectiveness and market share captured by the others by any means possible?

    Currently you have to remain the best in order to stay at the top. But if we remove all the forces which ensure that, how do we know it to be the case?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #66
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Why? I see it as the opposite. Once you're on the top, you've aggregated most of the supply, production, etc. for that particular market. It's easy to control it, it's easy to prevent access to it. Furthermore, you have the resources available for deceptive practices and predatory pricing techniques; what prevents you from going down that path? I think once established, with no regulation or oversight, it's much much easier to stay on top
    And then consumer demand changes, someone comes up with a better way to do things, or you just get complacent. It does happen quite often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Apple has been around for a long time, but they were unable to stop the monopolization of OS that Microsoft accomplished. And they can compete better now because the government came down on Microsoft, broke it up. There was regulation and oversight. What if there were none? Would Apple still be around? Would it be as "big" as it is now? I don't think so.
    Apple still had to do well on its own. Linux also came into the picture. In the long run, monopolization is very difficult to maintain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Besides, Apple sucks.
    No dispute there. I contribute to Microsoft's near dominance myself, because it doesn't suck. If you can get a large chunk of consumer demand by not sucking, then in my opinion, God bless ya.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  7. #67
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    And then consumer demand changes, someone comes up with a better way to do things, or you just get complacent. It does happen quite often.
    Indeed, and I would love to do things solely through consumer demand. But that takes responsible, educated consumerism. And honestly, take a look around at this country and tell me that this is something that is realistically feasible. So if we're going to talk about what likely will happen, them most likely thing is that there will be no responsible, educated consumerism and the monopolies will have easy time holding on. You can argue that we'll get what we deserve, and on some level that is certainly true. Yet it's a less than satisfactory answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Apple still had to do well on its own. Linux also came into the picture. In the long run, monopolization is very difficult to maintain.
    But remember, back in the day Apple was circling the drain. The only Apple I ever owned was an Apple 2 C. Learned to program in basic on it. Had Microsoft been allowed to, they would have pushed Apple over the cliff. But they are restricted in their marketing and aggregated resource so they couldn't. Thus Apple survived and held on long enough to capture some of the upcoming techs to successfully compete and participate in the market. Thanks to oversight and regulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    No dispute there. I contribute to Microsoft's near dominance myself, because it doesn't suck. If you can get a large chunk of consumer demand by not sucking, then in my opinion, God bless ya.
    There's always that too, I really think that mostly fits Windows. But now so few people use Macs and such that there aren't even any viruses for it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #68
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Indeed, and I would love to do things solely through consumer demand. But that takes responsible, educated consumerism. And honestly, take a look around at this country and tell me that this is something that is realistically feasible. So if we're going to talk about what likely will happen, them most likely thing is that there will be no responsible, educated consumerism and the monopolies will have easy time holding on. You can argue that we'll get what we deserve, and on some level that is certainly true. Yet it's a less than satisfactory answer.
    Not everybody has to know what they're doing. A large enough number of informed consumers drive demand. Companies try to get them, and if someone's too lazy to research a certain product (in the Internet age for Christ's sake) oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But remember, back in the day Apple was circling the drain. The only Apple I ever owned was an Apple 2 C. Learned to program in basic on it. Had Microsoft been allowed to, they would have pushed Apple over the cliff. But they are restricted in their marketing and aggregated resource so they couldn't. Thus Apple survived and held on long enough to capture some of the upcoming techs to successfully compete and participate in the market. Thanks to oversight and regulation.
    If Apple couldn't cut it on its own, I'd say screw em. anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There's always that too, I really think that mostly fits Windows. But now so few people use Macs and such that there aren't even any viruses for it.
    Because they suck. People avoid them, because Microsoft built a better product.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  9. #69
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think that monopoly and oligopoly will form regardless if there isn't proper oversight and regulation. Can it occur with government help? Hell yes it can. Very easily. We currently have a very similar form of capitalism now, corporate capitalism which is in fact supported and proliferated through the State. I am not saying that it can't happen, that the government can't act improperly or that the government cannot encourage monopoly. I'm saying that monopoly doesn't necessarily need government to form.
    If it can happen naturally without state aid then why can't you point to a single example to prove your point? The market is far to competitive to sustain a monopoly without state involvement; such as, barriers to entry and cronyism in which exclusive contracts are awarded to favored companies.


    But people are saying monopoly takes the State, I don't see how that's true.
    Well A) the state itself is an unjust monopoly, and B) if you don't think it's true then point us to a monopoly which has formed without the aid of the state.


    They existed, yes. They "competed" against Carnegie. But not on large scale, and they did not own as much of the supply and processing power that Carnegie held. They simply couldn't fully compete against Carnegie. They can establish a little niche, yes. And even with monopoly or even oligopoly, there is nothing which says a niche cannot be developed.
    They were a viable competitor so Carnegie's Steel Company didn't even meet the definition of monopoly to begin with.

    I remain unconvinced. You've basically told me that monopoly cannot form without government intervention because of magic.
    No I have said because the natural competitiveness of the market won't allow monopoly to be sustained, you on the other hand say that it can form without state intervention and yet have failed to provide a single example of that having ever occurred.

    I don't buy it. Why? What is they dynamic? What prevents a company from taking too much, what prevents them from using smear tactics,
    Tort legislation which would protect private companies from defamation which could be settled through private arbitration.

    from using deceptive marketing,
    Consumer activism.

    from using predatory pricing?
    Once again predatory is a myth, there is not a single example of it having ever occurred, and moreover, it is illogical for a company to go through the immense risks which predatory pricing would entail. The company would have to lower its prices drastically in the future hopes of gaining them back, that is considerably risky. Moreover, there are counter strategies to predatory pricing, for example a smaller company could just close up show and wait until the "company with deep pockets" raises its prices back up, and then go back into business. Or the smaller company could sell there company to yet another company "with deep pockets" or an investor could go around after all of the small companies have been driven out of business, buy their factories at firesale prices and come into the market ready to beat the **** out of the guy who was stupid enough to drop prices in the first place who is now about to go out of business because he just lost considerable profits by dropping prices and his little scheme didn't work because a wealthy savvy investor saw him coming a mile a way.

    Right now, rules and regulations prevent that. But without that, how do you prevent this? Saying "oh blah blah blah, competition" doesn't cut it. I need to see the actual servo which will prevent humans from acting like humans and that which can sustain actual free market capitalism. What we currently use to try to stop humans from being human is government force. We have fines, we have courts, we have regulations to ensure worker safety
    Tort laws in liability cases handled by private arbiters could be used to insure worker safety.

    and proper wages.
    Highly skilled workers get good pay, because companies compete to hire them, unskilled workers are harmed by minimum wage laws because it makes it expensive for firms to hire them as trainees.


    But lazzie-faire...none of that exists. So how do you exert that force? People aren't going to stop being people. And if you unbridled business to do whatever they want whenever they want it, they will act only in one way; increase profit. And they'll do whatever they can to do so. They'll have no choice. Now that you've removed all the outside force which can control that, how is it that in your ideal environment these things are controlled?

    It's just like what happened in the banking sector before the collapse. Between Clinton and Bush, all proper regulation of loans and leveraging were removed. Some people knew the system was unsustainable; headed for a crash. But they could do nothing about it. Not when their competitors were out making money hand over fist. They too had to go make money hand over fist by any means possible. And they did, and they rode the wave to the breaking point. And now we're in a fine little mess.

    No government regulation/oversight is just as bad as too much government regulation and oversight; maybe even more so.
    The mess that we're in is a direct result of the Federal Reserve and Corporatism run amok. It was not the free market that failed it was state capitalism.

  10. #70
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I mean, I think a good example of your point is Microsoft. Right? They came in with an idea, a good idea, a marketable idea, and they blew up. Before you knew it, everything ran on Microsoft. Now perhaps it was all lovey dovey the way they ran; but with no government intervention Microsoft rockets past everyone else. Now they can be on top and what's to prevent them from using their resources, brand name, and power from destroying anything which threatens their base or to ensure their reign at top through deceptive and destructive market tools? Nothing. And thus the free market dies.
    Microsoft has a 90 year copyright on all versions of Windows.

    Anyone that tries to improve and sell a better/customized/different copy of Windows anything will be infringing on their copyright.

    Microsoft has a government granted monopoly.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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