View Poll Results: Which of the following Libertarian Party Issues do you support(Libertarian only vote)

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  • Laissez Faire capitalism

    31 70.45%
  • End drug prohibition

    42 95.45%
  • avoid interventionism in foreign polic

    29 65.91%
  • End foreign aid

    30 68.18%
  • End gun bans

    37 84.09%
  • Deregulate healthcare

    32 72.73%
  • Semi-amnesty for illegal aliens(work for amnesty)

    15 34.09%
  • End welfare

    30 68.18%
  • Allow opting out of Social Security

    37 84.09%
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Thread: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

  1. #51
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, because most of them started up independently at first. It wasn't until the oligopoly was established in which the government took over the expansion of railroad tracks.
    A) Prove it.

    B) I can almost guarantee that there was state policies in play that aided in the formation of these oligopoly's as well; such as, the issuance of licenses and contracts to firms with connections within government.

    And the government regulation which occurred in the railroad industry was mostly an optimization/safety standard than it was a "propping up" of a monopoly.
    They funded the construction of the rail road, and they gave Southern Pacific 175 million acres of free public land. The Pacific Rail Act had very little to do with regulation and everything to do with granting a state sponsored monopoly to Southern Pacific.

    Steel had it's own regional monopolies as well.
    There were always competitors. Even Carnegie and later U.S. Steel had local competition in the form of J&L Steel.

  2. #52
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    A) Prove it.


    B) I can almost guarantee that there was state policies in play that aided in the formation of these oligopoly's as well; such as, the issuance of licenses and contracts to firms with connections within government.
    Maybe. But initially all the railroads were entirely private and the companies fought each other for tracks, contracts, and business. Regions then began to consolidate to remove the bidding wars. Eventually government involved itself in the industry to take over the tracks for various reasons, among them was efficiency and safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    They funded the construction of the rail road, and they gave Southern Pacific 175 million acres of free public land. The Pacific Rail Act had very little to do with regulation and everything to do with granting a state sponsored monopoly to Southern Pacific.
    Government funds a lot of ****. But the government had desire to expand the railroad coast to coast and so it did. Like anything, they turned to a private business already established and looked to have them do it. We still do the same thing now on many fronts. It doesn't necessarily support or establish the monopoly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    There were always competitors. Even Carnegie and later U.S. Steel had local competition in the form of J&L Steel.
    Aye, there were always competitors, but Carnegie and US Steel held their regional monopolies none the less. Monopoly is control over a vast majority of the resources/business of a particular trade. Oligopoly is several companies coming together to make competition and product rules between them. None of these say that absolutely there won't be another company. It's just that the company doesn't have as much access to the markets as the monopoly or oligopoly will have.

    And this is all actually besides the point. I mean, let's even take your claims as a base. We have not yet seen a monopoly/oligopoly which has developed without government. Well that doesn't say that it can't. You may say that it can't, but it's not been demonstrated that there would be any amount of actual power to properly servo the system. There is no regulation, there is no oversight. And you think that companies are going to get along happy happy like in a manner which will promote, proliferate, and sustain the free market instead of collapsing into monopoly and oligopoly. I think it's as foolish as thinking that anarchy is a viable form of government. Sure it would be great if it was, but humans being humans; it's not. Nor is Lazzie-faire a system by which the free market can be sustained. Humans being humans, there will be immediate and unbridled push towards monopoly and oligopoly. And I'll bet dollars to donuts it'd take shape in such a way as to leave us yearning for the days of "state sponsored" monopoly/oligopoly.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #53
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And this is all actually besides the point. I mean, let's even take your claims as a base. We have not yet seen a monopoly/oligopoly which has developed without government. Well that doesn't say that it can't. You may say that it can't, but it's not been demonstrated that there would be any amount of actual power to properly servo the system. There is no regulation, there is no oversight. And you think that companies are going to get along happy happy like in a manner which will promote, proliferate, and sustain the free market instead of collapsing into monopoly and oligopoly. I think it's as foolish as thinking that anarchy is a viable form of government. Sure it would be great if it was, but humans being humans; it's not. Nor is Lazzie-faire a system by which the free market can be sustained. Humans being humans, there will be immediate and unbridled push towards monopoly and oligopoly. And I'll bet dollars to donuts it'd take shape in such a way as to leave us yearning for the days of "state sponsored" monopoly/oligopoly.
    Bingo! It's human nature to pursue self interest. And it would be in the self interest of large companies to pursue monopolies or oligopolies or at a minimum engage in collusion with each other to circumvent market forces. Anyone who thinks companies wouldn't attempt this is delusional. The free market, if left entirely to the devices of private companies, would quickly collapse into something entirely different than the free market. Certain government regulations help preserve the free market.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  4. #54
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Maybe. But initially all the railroads were entirely private and the companies fought each other for tracks, contracts, and business. Regions then began to consolidate to remove the bidding wars. Eventually government involved itself in the industry to take over the tracks for various reasons, among them was efficiency and safety.

    It was because of statist intervention in the market through the creations of various barriers to entry which allowed the monopolies and oligopolies to form.

    Government funds a lot of ****. But the government had desire to expand the railroad coast to coast and so it did. Like anything, they turned to a private business already established and looked to have them do it. We still do the same thing now on many fronts. It doesn't necessarily support or establish the monopoly.
    They didn't just fund it they gave them 175 million acres of free land. Even if the competitors could afford to build competitive rail roads without governmental investment they would need to get the Feds to seed to them the public lands in the Western Territories which of course the state would not do as the government did not want competition because then they would have more trouble getting the bonds paid back by Southern Pacific. In a free market that unused public land would have been homesteaded the second someone invested labor into building a rail road track on them and there would have been much more competition between many different firms because no single firm could afford to produce the transcontinental railroad on their own without federal investment.


    Aye, there were always competitors, but Carnegie and US Steel held their regional monopolies none the less.
    Once again J&L Steel was a regional competitor to Carnegie.

    Monopoly is control over a vast majority of the resources/business of a particular trade. Oligopoly is several companies coming together to make competition and product rules between them. None of these say that absolutely there won't be another company. It's just that the company doesn't have as much access to the markets as the monopoly or oligopoly will have.

    And this is all actually besides the point. I mean, let's even take your claims as a base. We have not yet seen a monopoly/oligopoly which has developed without government. Well that doesn't say that it can't. You may say that it can't, but it's not been demonstrated that there would be any amount of actual power to properly servo the system. There is no regulation, there is no oversight. And you think that companies are going to get along happy happy like in a manner which will promote, proliferate, and sustain the free market instead of collapsing into monopoly and oligopoly. I think it's as foolish as thinking that anarchy is a viable form of government. Sure it would be great if it was, but humans being humans; it's not. Nor is Lazzie-faire a system by which the free market can be sustained. Humans being humans, there will be immediate and unbridled push towards monopoly and oligopoly. And I'll bet dollars to donuts it'd take shape in such a way as to leave us yearning for the days of "state sponsored" monopoly/oligopoly.
    Monopolies simply can not form without governmental intervention, markets are simply to competitive to allow for sustained monopolies, that is without statist imposed barriers to entry.

    Here's an interesting article on the subject:

    http://mises.org/etexts/armentanomonopoly.pdf

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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    No amnesty for criminals. Sheesh, giving the store away is NOT a libertarian position.

    Enabling legal immigrants in to find work, that's another matter entirely.

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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I voted for all of them except for ending welfare and amnesty. While an enemy of the police state, libertarianism still doesn't support flaunting the law, which illegal immigration does. Also, some basement level of welfare is necessary.
    No.

    A libertarian would say, "since I feel a basement level of welfare is necessary, I'm willing to contribute a percentage of my wealth to help the poor and encourage others to voluntarily contribute theirs, also, but the government should not seize the power to take money to give to others."

  7. #57
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    I did this before, but as Redress sees fit to recap, I figure it is too.

    Laissez Faire capitalism

    I'd like something pretty close to it. Usually government regulation just makes things worse. The market is too diverse to be tamed by Uncle Sam and people can only really know their own self-interest best.

    End drug prohibition

    Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal one. We don't arrest you for eating fatty food, do we? Stop pushing away addicts from help and fueling violence over the drug trade. Legalize drugs.

    Avoid interventionism in foreign police

    To a certain extent. We could certainly reduce military spending and close some bases, but sometimes it's in our best interests to get involved militarily abroad.

    End foreign aid

    I support direct aid for things like natural disasters and the Afghanistan War, and I wouldn't mind NATO bombing Khartoum. However, most aid just enriches corrupt governments. Globalization is far more beneficial.

    End gun bans

    Yes, the people need to be able to rebel against a tyrannical government if necessary.

    Deregulate healthcare

    Much of the problems we have are related to the government cartelizing insurance and obscuring costs with tax benefits for employer based insurance. End the tax breaks and regulations on insurance. As for things like doctors being accredited, I wouldn't make it a requirement for practicing medicine, but they have to inform consumers what their level of education is.

    Semi-amnesty for illegal aliens(work for amnesty)

    Immigration is in serious need for reform. Don't know about semi-amnesty, but it must be made far easier for poor people to immigrate, or else they'll just sneek in and leech off of our entitlements and welfare.

    End welfare

    Not entirely, I still support unemployment insurance, assistance to the disabled, and a small stipend for the poor so they can spend it as they see fit. However, for the most part, yes.

    Allow opting out of Social Security

    Privatize it.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  8. #58
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    It was because of statist intervention in the market through the creations of various barriers to entry which allowed the monopolies and oligopolies to form.
    I think that monopoly and oligopoly will form regardless if there isn't proper oversight and regulation. Can it occur with government help? Hell yes it can. Very easily. We currently have a very similar form of capitalism now, corporate capitalism which is in fact supported and proliferated through the State. I am not saying that it can't happen, that the government can't act improperly or that the government cannot encourage monopoly. I'm saying that monopoly doesn't necessarily need government to form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    They didn't just fund it they gave them 175 million acres of free land. Even if the competitors could afford to build competitive rail roads without governmental investment they would need to get the Feds to seed to them the public lands in the Western Territories which of course the state would not do as the government did not want competition because then they would have more trouble getting the bonds paid back by Southern Pacific. In a free market that unused public land would have been homesteaded the second someone invested labor into building a rail road track on them and there would have been much more competition between many different firms because no single firm could afford to produce the transcontinental railroad on their own without federal investment.
    I mean, we can sit here and point out improper government action till the cows come home. I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. I am disagreeing with the assertion that monopoly/oligopoly cannot form without government. Government certainly has helped their buddies in high places a lot at the cost of actual competition. They have certainly acted improperly in the past, present, and future. I cannot and will not deny that. But people are saying monopoly takes the State, I don't see how that's true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Once again J&L Steel was a regional competitor to Carnegie.
    They existed, yes. They "competed" against Carnegie. But not on large scale, and they did not own as much of the supply and processing power that Carnegie held. They simply couldn't fully compete against Carnegie. They can establish a little niche, yes. And even with monopoly or even oligopoly, there is nothing which says a niche cannot be developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Monopolies simply can not form without governmental intervention, markets are simply to competitive to allow for sustained monopolies, that is without statist imposed barriers to entry.

    Here's an interesting article on the subject:

    http://mises.org/etexts/armentanomonopoly.pdf
    I remain unconvinced. You've basically told me that monopoly cannot form without government intervention because of magic. I don't buy it. Why? What is they dynamic? What prevents a company from taking too much, what prevents them from using smear tactics, from using deceptive marketing, from using predatory pricing? Right now, rules and regulations prevent that. But without that, how do you prevent this? Saying "oh blah blah blah, competition" doesn't cut it. I need to see the actual servo which will prevent humans from acting like humans and that which can sustain actual free market capitalism. What we currently use to try to stop humans from being human is government force. We have fines, we have courts, we have regulations to ensure worker safety and proper wages. But lazzie-faire...none of that exists. So how do you exert that force? People aren't going to stop being people. And if you unbridled business to do whatever they want whenever they want it, they will act only in one way; increase profit. And they'll do whatever they can to do so. They'll have no choice. Now that you've removed all the outside force which can control that, how is it that in your ideal environment these things are controlled?

    It's just like what happened in the banking sector before the collapse. Between Clinton and Bush, all proper regulation of loans and leveraging were removed. Some people knew the system was unsustainable; headed for a crash. But they could do nothing about it. Not when their competitors were out making money hand over fist. They too had to go make money hand over fist by any means possible. And they did, and they rode the wave to the breaking point. And now we're in a fine little mess.

    No government regulation/oversight is just as bad as too much government regulation and oversight; maybe even more so.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #59
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Monopolies certainly can form naturally, but this is very difficult to do. The company must convince everyone that it that it's product is the best. Even with collusion, it's very difficult to fill up every niche of consumer demand.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  10. #60
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    Re: Libertarian Issues-Libertarians only please vote

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Monopolies certainly can form naturally, but this is very difficult to do. The company must convince everyone that it that it's product is the best. Even with collusion, it's very difficult to fill up every niche of consumer demand.
    I can see it maybe harder to start one up since yes you'll have to compete without government favoring any one side. But I also see it as easier to keep once you've obtained. And I see nothing which would absolutely prevent them.

    I mean, I think a good example of your point is Microsoft. Right? They came in with an idea, a good idea, a marketable idea, and they blew up. Before you knew it, everything ran on Microsoft. Now perhaps it was all lovey dovey the way they ran; but with no government intervention Microsoft rockets past everyone else. Now they can be on top and what's to prevent them from using their resources, brand name, and power from destroying anything which threatens their base or to ensure their reign at top through deceptive and destructive market tools? Nothing. And thus the free market dies.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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