View Poll Results: Do You Believe Our Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

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Thread: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

  1. #51
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If your kid is bullying other kids and taking their lunch money, he is using force, and therefore you are liable for his actions. But in any case, I thought you wanted to discuss legal principles, rather than argue legal semantics about coercion vs extortion. I have no interest in doing the latter.
    I'm sorry, but it is up to you to provide some evidence of this nebulous concept of 'vicarious coercion' and place it in context.

  2. #52
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I'm sorry, but it is up to you to provide some evidence of this nebulous concept of 'vicarious coercion' and place it in context.
    Maybe it was osmosis? I mean it does make as much sense as the rest of the argument being made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  3. #53
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Maybe it was osmosis? I mean it does make as much sense as the rest of the argument being made.
    Well that's about the only thing I could think of that would underpin de facto liability for the coercive acts of another.

    At least according to Australian and English common law, what the guy is saying is a complete joke.

  4. #54
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I notice the parents of the kids (the school shooters in Colorado) were not held responsible for the deaths of all the other kids? I guess they just did not coerce them enough?

    Come on man, you are making no sense.
    CNN - Columbine lawsuit may go beyond shooters' parents - May 27, 1999

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    You said...

    Not really. It's difficult to believe in freedom from government coercion if you own another human being (with the government's blessing). Jefferson was pretty hypocritical in that regard.

    Owning a slave has nothing at all to do with the government coercing anyone to do anything.
    If the government lets the strongman do whatever the hell he wants, then it ceases to be a government and the strongman BECOMES the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    I can see why you are bowing out and I agree at this point it is a good idea.
    Ya. I don't know why I let you waste an hour of my time when you just wanted to argue legal semantics over the difference between "coercion" and "extortion," which I couldn't care less about. You've made an excellent contribution to the thread, and have a huge e-penis.
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  5. #55
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Well that's about the only thing I could think of that would underpin de facto liability for the coercive acts of another.
    So you don't believe you can be held liable for the actions of your kid?
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  6. #56
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    This is a form of historical masturbation perpetrated by libertarians.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  7. #57
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So you don't believe you can be held liable for the actions of your kid?
    Well there's no common law authority to say that you are. But over and above that, the analogy illustrates a general principle, that being that there is no concept of de facto vicarious liability for coercion of another.

    Let me put it in slightly more legal terms. Coercion in itself is not a legal wrong. In some circumstances, it is a legal wrong, such as when threatening assault, but that is not because it is coercion. The coercive act must itself be wrongful under some other measure. This begs the question of liability. At least in Australian and English law, which shares some similarities with the US system, vicarious liabilty of third parties for wrongful acts of others is derived from a particular relationship between the wrongful party and the third party; they could be in an employee/employer relationship, for instance. Another example is that of prison officers and prisoners. But the gist is the legal relationship, not the acts or motives of the parties involved.

    Now it would make sense to contextualise this. The Hugo Chavez example that you used earlier is invalid because newspaper reporters have no direct relationship to Chavez's regime. Therefore, no duty has been created. Moving away from the law (but using similar logic), a government should not, and does not, take responsibility for the acts of the people it governs, because there is no direct relationship between the acts of the masses and the government itself. Governments simply provide people with a legal (and perhaps moral) framework in which to act. Libertarians identify with this, but believe that this framework should be kept to a minimum in order to maximise the possibilities of individual choice.

    And that is why governments do not coerce people by giving them options.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 05-24-10 at 04:05 AM.

  8. #58
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    This is still not coercion, this is being responsible, it is completely different. The parents did not coerce the children at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If the government lets the strongman do whatever the hell he wants, then it ceases to be a government and the strongman BECOMES the government.
    I agree, to bad this has absolutely nothing to do with the government coercing anyone to do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    [Ya. I don't know why I let you waste an hour of my time when you just wanted to argue legal semantics over the difference between "coercion" and "extortion," which I couldn't care less about. You've made an excellent contribution to the thread, and have a huge e-penis.
    It has nothing to do with coercion or extortion. The government did not coerce anyone into owning slaves nor did the extort them into it.

    Thanks for your useless denial and waste of my time as well.

    Any victory is better than any defeat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #59
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Just to make the point: you guys are getting hung up on the word "coercion" and losing sight of the points every one is trying to make.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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  10. #60
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Some of them were libertines and belonged to the hellfire club. The Hell-Fire Club, Masonic Deism, Dashwood, Franklin, and the Black Mass

    Most of them were deists who evolved from the Renaissance.

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