View Poll Results: Do You Believe Our Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

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    21 42.00%
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Thread: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

  1. #41
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    No, the focus of libertarianism is having a government that doesn't infringe on personal liberty, which is not the least bit incompatible with slavery, since it is individual citizens who own the slaves. Again, you are proving the top-down lens through which you look in which the government is responsible for all legal actions.

    Libertarianism in general places far more emphasis on the former than the latter. Government-protect-liberty is not a libertarian thing, since almost everyone else wants that too. Ideologies are defined by how they differ from the rest; libertarianism differs from the rest in the government-stay-out sense, not the government-protect-liberty sense. Hence, Jefferson may have been hypocritical, but not as a libertarian.
    Libertarianism is simply a modern form of classical liberalism that places more emphasis on contractual and property rights. The function of government in a libertarian state, if any, is to protect negative individual freedom to do as one pleases without interference by anyone else. Generally a proviso is added in the form of the 'Harm Principle' as stated by J.S. Mill, that individuals can act as they please so long as they are not infringing upon others' rights in doing so. Suggesting that there is a divison between 'government-stay-out' and 'government-protect' is somewhat misleading in libertarian terms because the two function almost identically. The libertarian conception of government is one that functions to protect negative individual liberty by staying out of it. This is because libertarians generally dispute the notion of 'positive liberty' which is used by some to legitimise government involvement for the purposes of 'empowering' people etc.

    This in isolation makes slavery immoral from a libertarian point of view. However, it is worth remembering that, so long as individuals have willingly contracted into a slave-owner relationship, of their own volition, such a relationship would be regarded as legitimate by some libertarians. Basically whether or not slavery is endorsed by libertarianism depends on the circumstances in which the slave-owner relationship has been created (that is, wilfully or coercively) and whether that respects proprietary and contractual rights as an function of 'individual liberty'.

  2. #42
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes
    1234567
    Nope...

    Coerce -

    1.to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.

    2.to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

    3.to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.


    Without exerting influence of some type and disregarding personal desire it is not coercion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  3. #43
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Nope...

    Coerce -

    1.to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.

    2.to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

    3.to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.


    Without exerting influence of some type and disregarding personal desire it is not coercion.
    If your kid is bullying other kids for their lunch money, he is coercing them. By extension, you are coercing them by not preventing it from happening. And any court in the country would agree if the kid's family sued you.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-24-10 at 02:16 AM.
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  4. #44
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If your kid is bullying other kids for their lunch money, he is coercing them. By extension, you are coercing them by not preventing it from happening. And any court in the country would agree if the kid's family sued you.
    This has nothing to do with your original assertion about government, but lets run with it as an example.

    If your kids are shaking kids down for lunch money and you had nothing to do with it, you would be laughed out of court. Not that any lawyer worth his slat would take such a stupid case.

    It is not coercion without some kind of force, period.

    You can argue with the dictionary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  5. #45
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This has nothing to do with your original assertion about government, but lets run with it as an example.
    Well, I wasn't the one who brought it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    If your kids are shaking kids down for lunch money and you had nothing to do with it, you would be laughed out of court.
    No, I would be ordered to repay the victims, because it's coercion.
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  6. #46
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well, I wasn't the one who brought it up.
    Irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, I would be ordered to repay the victims, because it's coercion.
    Proof? Law? Definition that says...

    Coercion -

    Not telling someone to do something, and then not making it illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #47
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Irrelevant.
    My, my. Someone is in an argumentative mood tonight, ready to challenge ANYTHING.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Proof? Law? Definition that says...
    Really? You want proof that I am legally liable if my kid robs someone? Really?
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  8. #48
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    My, my. Someone is in an argumentative mood tonight, ready to challenge ANYTHING.
    Even more irrelevant comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Really? You want proof that I am legally liable if my kid robs someone? Really?
    No real argument so now we change the goal posts, on the example no less!

    A minor difference exists between robbery and a kid shaking down a kid for lunch money.

    Either way you are still wrong legally, I notice no evidence from you either.

    Coercion is NOT extortion. Coercion is not theft or robbery or anything else. It is using FORCE or AUTHORITY as FORCE to make someone do something they don't want to do or against their will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #49
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Even more irrelevant comment.
    Why'd you turn into an ass all of a sudden? Did you forget to take your meds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    No real argument so now we change the goal posts, on the example no less!

    A minor difference exists between robbery and a kid shaking down a kid for lunch money.
    And what would that difference be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Either way you are still wrong legally, I notice no evidence from you either.

    Coercion is NOT extortion. Coercion is not theft or robbery or anything else. It is using FORCE or AUTHORITY as FORCE to make someone do something they don't want to do or against their will.
    If your kid is bullying other kids and taking their lunch money, he is using force, and therefore you are liable for his actions. But in any case, I thought you wanted to discuss legal principles, rather than argue legal semantics about coercion vs extortion. I have no interest in doing the latter.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-24-10 at 03:11 AM.
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  10. #50
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why'd you turn into an ass all of a sudden? Did you forget to take your meds?
    Now you resort to personal attacks, great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And what would that difference be?
    One is a criminal offense, the other is a spanking. Did I really have to explain that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If your kid is bullying other kids and taking their lunch money, he is using force, and therefore you are liable for his actions.
    I notice the parents of the kids (the school shooters in Colorado) were not held responsible for the deaths of all the other kids? I guess they just did not coerce them enough?

    Come on man, you are making no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But in any case, I thought you wanted to discuss legal principles, rather than argue legal semantics about coercion/extortion. I have no interest in doing the latter.
    You said...

    Not really. It's difficult to believe in freedom from government coercion if you own another human being (with the government's blessing). Jefferson was pretty hypocritical in that regard.

    Owning a slave has nothing at all to do with the government coercing anyone to do anything.

    I can see why you are bowing out and I agree at this point it is a good idea.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 05-24-10 at 03:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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