View Poll Results: Do You Believe Our Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

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    21 42.00%
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    20 40.00%
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Thread: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

  1. #131
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    There are many schools of anarchist thought, there are collective anarchists and there are individualist anarchists.
    If there are self-proclaimed "anarchists" out there who are advocating ANY form of formal government, they're just idiots, is all.

    There are a LOT of anarcho-morons running around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Um why do you need the state to own property and buy and sell said property?
    Because there are these people out in the real world that I like to call "theives", who will come along and rob people. And if there is no government to assume the voluntarily surrendered power of the people to enforce law, there's only Anarchy and Chaos, and Captain Anarchy NEVER marches, he rides his horse named Chaos, everywhere he goes.

  2. #132
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    There were income taxes long before the ratification of the 16th amendment.
    And the courts consistently ruled the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT could not tax income.

    Duh.

    Already been said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And who endowed them with that power? No one alive today. The social contract created by the Founders was not entered into you or myself voluntarily and is thus null and void.
    What social contract? I don't recall signing any documents. But if you don't like the Constitution, there's nothing stopping you from getting outside it's jurisdiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And what gives a gang of man the to forcefully steal from the individual? What you call tariffs on the governmental level is nothing more than racketeering.
    No, it's called "border control".

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Theft is theft.
    Socialism is theft.

    Collectivism is theft.

    Capitalism is ownership of private property.

    Glad we managed to make that all clear now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And what the hell is the difference between the voluntary contractual agreement between two citizens of the same country and two citizens of different countries?
    Armies and Navies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Why does one imply the legitimization of theft by a gang of men and the other does not?
    The will of the people.

    The rule of law.

    The essential stabilities and freedoms necessary for civilization, not anarchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Why are they essential?
    Because that's how human nature works in the real world. You know, the place where anarchist fantasies can't happen the way the anarchist like to pretend they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    What gave them that right? I never entered into any contractual agreement with any state or collective granting them control over the fruits of my labor.
    Your voluntary presence in the United States itself obligates you a minimalist behavorial set that contributes to the upkeep of the country, as defined by the Constitution itself. So you get to pay for the military. Nothing unconstitutional there. You get to pay for the courts and the law enforcement. You get to pay for the limited government the Constitution defines.

    That's you obligation as a citizen or legal resident of this nation.

    Which isn't to say that there's not a container shipload of utter socialist BULL that you're being forced to pay because the Constitution is being raped.

    But if you want to live in a country, you have to do you part to support the country. Don't like it here? Move to Somalia. Don a burqa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I as a human being am entitled to the inalienable right of self ownership which means I owe no good or service to ANYBODY!!!
    Not true. As a community of citizens you're at least obligated to pay for the defense and operation of that community. People aren't woodpeckers, that live alone and fly from tree to tree to tree looking for bugs to eat. People evolved as social animals with social cooperativeness an essential behavioral trait. People who don't want to pay their own way don't travel far on the backs of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    It is both. There are both minarchists and anarchists within the Libertarian party, the minarchists have given up on principle for the sake of elective pragmatism.
    There may be anarchists in the LP, but that just means they're either more stupid than your typical anarchist, or liars, though this does not mean they can't be both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The state and individual sovereignty are mutually exclusive concepts.
    Wrong.

    There's limits on both state and individual sovereignity in non-overlapping fields. The state has the authority and the power to declare a person a criminal for violating another person's sovereignity. A person does not have this power or authority.

    The sovereignity of the State and the sovereignity of the Individual are Complementary concepts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    You called me a fool.
    I never said one word of condemnation to you personally.

  3. #133
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The only legitimate use of force is in either punitive or preemptive self defense, anything else is murder. But of course when the state engages in murder it's perfectly legitimate, because the state said it was legitimate.
    So when a doctor commits an abortion under MessiahCare, it won't be murder, even if the same doctor had performed the same murderous procedure before the implementation of MessiahCare?

  4. #134
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post

    Because there are these people out in the real world that I like to call "theives", who will come along and rob people. And if there is no government to assume the voluntarily surrendered power of the people to enforce law, there's only Anarchy and Chaos, and Captain Anarchy NEVER marches, he rides his horse named Chaos, everywhere he goes.
    lol you don't need the state to have security, private security firms would fill the void left by the state. Furthermore; one would retain the right to collective and individual self defense.

  5. #135
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    So when a doctor commits an abortion under MessiahCare, it won't be murder, even if the same doctor had performed the same murderous procedure before the implementation of MessiahCare?
    Abortion isn't murder if the fetus is not viable outside of the womb; furthermore, once the fetus is viable outside of the womb the woman has the right to evict unwanted trespassers as she has the right to self ownership.

  6. #136
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by TLC1ST View Post
    Not all slaves were black,and not all slave owners were white. Check your history!
    True there were all kinds of slavery but we are talking about African slavery here. ,

  7. #137
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol you don't need the state to have security, private security firms would fill the void left by the state.
    Yes, mercenary armies are ALWAYS soooo reliable and dedicated, and they're especially concerned with protecting the lives and property of the poorest citizens, the guys who, according to you, aren't required to pay the wages of your private security force.

    This begs the question if you've ever done more than read the various crackpot anarchistic butterfly theories floating about on the internet or if, worse, you've actually spent time thinking on what you've read and come to the conclusions you're posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Furthermore; one would retain the right to collective and individual self defense.
    Last I checked, the society established by the Constitution ensures the People's right to indivdual and collective defense. It's called the "Second Amendment".

  8. #138
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yes, mercenary armies are ALWAYS soooo reliable and dedicated, and they're especially concerned with protecting the lives and property of the poorest citizens, the guys who, according to you, aren't required to pay the wages of your private security force.

    This begs the question if you've ever done more than read the various crackpot anarchistic butterfly theories floating about on the internet or if, worse, you've actually spent time thinking on what you've read and come to the conclusions you're posting.



    Last I checked, the society established by the Constitution ensures the People's right to indivdual and collective defense. It's called the "Second Amendment".
    "Collective defense"? That sounds commie to me.

  9. #139
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by jr602az View Post
    Ron Paul Believes that our Founding Fathers Were Libertarians. Awesome!!!

    Watch Video-> YouTube- Ron Paul: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians
    Doesn't everybody believe their beliefs echo the Founders in some way?
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  10. #140
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Doesn't everybody believe their beliefs echo the Founders in some way?
    As I've said many times, socialists and liberals are wrong.

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