View Poll Results: Do You Believe Our Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

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Thread: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

  1. #121
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    "Although anarchism rests on liberal intellectual foundations, notably the distinction between state and society, the protean character of the doctrine makes it difficult to disinguish clearly different schools of anarchist thought.
    No, it's not difficult at all.

    The word "anarchy" means "no government".

    Period.

    Perfectly plain, perfectly simple, a perfectly potty notion, given what the realities of human nature are. But lots of damn fools are running around calling themselves "anarchists", mostly because they're either ignorant of what the word means or ignorant of what the culmination of the concept produces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    But one important distinction is between individualist anarchism and social anarchism. The former emphasizes individual liberty, the sovereignty of the individual, the importance of private property or possession, and the iniquity of all monopolies. It may be seen as liberalism taken to an extreme conclusion. 'Anarcho-capitalism' is a contemporary variant of this school." -- Tom Bottomor
    Sorry, but the essence of "individual anarchism" would be the monopoly of power one has over oneself. Ergo, there can be no iniquity of "all" monopolies.

    Nor is "anarcho-capitalism" a valid concept, since the essence of capitalism is the possession of property and the freedom to buy and sell, neither of which exists in any condition of anarchy.

  2. #122
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    It never recognizes the validity of the state.
    You obviously havent rerad the platform.
    In it it describes and/or recognizes innumerable actions that are valid functions of the state.
    If the state itrself is not valid, how can any of its functions be valid?

    You simply do not understand the position of the LP.
    I believe this failure to understand is willful.

  3. #123
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, it's not difficult at all.

    The word "anarchy" means "no government".

    Period.

    Perfectly plain, perfectly simple, a perfectly potty notion, given what the realities of human nature are. But lots of damn fools are running around calling themselves "anarchists", mostly because they're either ignorant of what the word means or ignorant of what the culmination of the concept produces.
    There are many schools of anarchist thought, there are collective anarchists and there are individualist anarchists.

    Sorry, but the essence of "individual anarchism" would be the monopoly of power one has over oneself. Ergo, there can be no iniquity of "all" monopolies.
    Yes the individual would have exclusive ownership over his own person. So yes if you want to play your little word games then you are technically correct.

    Nor is "anarcho-capitalism" a valid concept, since the essence of capitalism is the possession of property and the freedom to buy and sell, neither of which exists in any condition of anarchy.
    Um why do you need the state to own property and buy and sell said property?

  4. #124
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You obviously havent rerad the platform.
    In it it describes and/or recognizes innumerable actions that are valid functions of the state.
    Such as?
    .......................

  5. #125
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    And the courts, until the 16th Amendment, have always ruled that taxes in individual income are unconstitutional.

    You could try reading your history sometime.
    There were income taxes long before the ratification of the 16th amendment.

    The people who wrote the Constitution of the United States of America, and the state legislatures that ratified it.
    And who endowed them with that power? No one alive today. The social contract created by the Founders was not entered into you or myself voluntarily and is thus null and void.

    Controlling national borders.

    It's something governments are SUPPOSED to do.
    And what gives a gang of man the to forcefully steal from the individual? What you call tariffs on the governmental level is nothing more than racketeering.

    You mean besides the fact that I wouldn't have to fill out thirty pages of BS forms every April? or that the government doesn't have first call on my wages?

    I say that tariffs are better, using this standard, people without standards may FEEL differently.
    Theft is theft.

    It's that border thang. Some people don't understand.
    And what the hell is the difference between the voluntary contractual agreement between two citizens of the same country and two citizens of different countries? Why does one imply the legitimization of theft by a gang of men and the other does not?

    In some future millenia, there won't be borders, there won't be nations trying to steal from us. Then things will be different.

    In the here and now, borders and the maintenance thereof, are essential.
    Why are they essential?

    Borders, buddy. You're crossing the imaginary but very real line between two autonomous and sovereign states. That gives them the authority to regulate your commerce.
    What gave them that right? I never entered into any contractual agreement with any state or collective granting them control over the fruits of my labor. I as a human being am entitled to the inalienable right of self ownership which means I owe no good or service to ANYBODY!!!

    Damn, boy. Pick one, anarchist or limited government. It can't be both, not with us that use words correctly.
    It is both. There are both minarchists and anarchists within the Libertarian party, the minarchists have given up on principle for the sake of elective pragmatism.


    Uh, no.

    The Libertarian Party is not an anarchist party. I've been a member for years, and the LP stands for limited government, not no government.
    The state and individual sovereignty are mutually exclusive concepts.

    Ah, there's your level of competence talking now.
    You called me a fool.

  6. #126
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    no, you need to DEFINE the term "murder" before you can legislate penalties for certain actions.

    Not all killing is murder.
    The only legitimate use of force is in either punitive or preemptive self defense, anything else is murder. But of course when the state engages in murder it's perfectly legitimate, because the state said it was legitimate.

  7. #127
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Then please do explain to me how you can have individual sovereignty AND a statist society. The two are antithetical concepts.
    Not if all State power and sovereignty is born from the People. In such a case we lend our individual sovereignty to the government to allow it to operate in means which best support our freedom and liberty. And the government may continue to operate until we pull our sovereignty from it; in which case a new government can be created.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #128
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not if all State power and sovereignty is born from the People. In such a case we lend our individual sovereignty to the government to allow it to operate in means which best support our freedom and liberty. And the government may continue to operate until we pull our sovereignty from it; in which case a new government can be created.
    A social contract can not be entered into voluntarily and is thus a violation of the right of self ownership. Any contract not entered into voluntarily is null and void. By having a state you are naturally granting the state the sole legitimate use of force and endowing in it the powers of the sovereign, there is no way to have individual sovereignty under state sovereignty. What you are asserting is akin to charging the wolf with protecting the sheep and expecting the wolf to listen when the sheep complain about getting eaten.

    "We must ask, not whether an anarcho-capitalist society would be safe from a power grab by the men with the guns (safety is not an available option), but whether it would be safer than our society is from a comparable seizure of power by the men with the guns. I think the answer is yes. In our society, the men who must engineer such a coup are politicians, military officers, and policemen, men selected precisely for the characteristic of desiring power and being good at using it. They are men who already believe that they have a right to push other men around - that is their job. They are particularly well qualified for the job of seizing power. Under anarcho-capitalism the men in control of protection agencies are selected for their ability to run an efficient business and please their customers. It is always possible that some will turn out to be secret power freaks as well, but it is surely less likely than under our system where the corresponding jobs are labeled 'non-power freaks need not apply'." -- David Friedman
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 05-25-10 at 11:24 AM.

  9. #129
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Such as?
    You -have- to be kidding me.

    1.2
    1.3
    1.5
    2.0
    2.4
    3.0
    3.1
    3.2
    3.3
    3.6
    Platform | Libertarian Party

    ALL of these secrions describe some valid function of the state.

    You clearly dont have a clue as to what you're talking about.

  10. #130
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Not all slaves were black,and not all slave owners were white. Check your history!

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