View Poll Results: Do You Believe Our Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

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Thread: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

  1. #111
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    And yet, the specifics of platform describe the proper role of government, necessitating that the LP recognizes the validity of the state.
    It never recognizes the validity of the state.

    In fact it says:

    "Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.

    We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things..."[/I]


    Now tell me exactly how is a government going to continue to exist that can not forcibly extort taxes from the citizenry or impose taxes on any of its citizens? Every policy in the platform is aimed at bringing about a stateless libertarian society.


    As such, your argument that the LP is anarchist fails.
    In the platform they talk about ways they wish to use political office to diminish the state, nowhere in the platform does it say that government is necessary or legitimate and to the contrary the platform is aimed at taking the necessary steps to abolish the state completely.

  2. #112
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Now tell me exactly how is a government going to continue to exist that can not forcibly extort taxes from the citizenry or impose taxes on any of its citizens? Every policy in the platform is aimed at bringing about a stateless libertarian society.
    By limiting it's spending to that sphere lawfully allowed it by the Constitution, thereby keeping the size of the government small enough that the original mechanism of tariffs would keep the government afloat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    In the platform they talk about ways they wish to use political office to diminish the state, nowhere in the platform does it say that government is necessary or legitimate and to the contrary the platform is aimed at taking the necessary steps to abolish the state completely.
    The document doesn't say that air is necessary either. And no, the Libertarian Party is NOT an Anarchist party.

    Only total fools and little children are anarchists.

  3. #113
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Hello?

    Individual sovereignity stops right at the same point anyone else's right to flail their arms stops...at the edge of personal space inside which a person has a reasonable expectation that he's going to be hit.

    Welcome to the real world, where the pipe dreams of liberalism, socialism, marxism, and anarchy don't work, ever.

    A sovereign individual is free to make decisions regarding his personal choices.

    He is not free of the consequences of those choices.

    If he chooses to spend his entire paycheck at the tavern, there's no reason anyone else should be obligated to feed him, or his family.

    If he chooses to kill the bartender, he gets to pay the price, in jail and maybe at the end of a rope.

    Because he doesn't have the individual sovereign right to invade the sovereignity of others. It's the sphere of government to punish those who do so invade.
    lol you don't need the state to prevent or punish the crime of murder which is clearly a violation of the right of self ownership. Furthermore; the idea that you can end violence by enshrining in a gang of men a legitimate right to use violence "for the common good" is counterintuitive.

  4. #114
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol you don't need the state to prevent or punish the crime of murder which is clearly a violation of the right of self ownership. Furthermore; the idea that you can end violence by enshrining in a gang of men a legitimate right to use violence "for the common good" is counterintuitive.
    Yes, you need the state to punish the crime of murder.

    You need the state to DEFINE the crime of murder.

    You really really REALLY need to read the Oresteia.

  5. #115
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    By limiting it's spending to that sphere lawfully allowed it by the Constitution, thereby keeping the size of the government small enough that the original mechanism of tariffs would keep the government afloat?
    Congress has always had the power to levy taxes and thus the power to steal from the individual. Furthermore; who says the state should have the right to impose tariffs anyways? What makes that any better than having the power to levy taxes? What business is it of yours or anyone else's if I decide to trade my goods with another individual in another country and what right do you or anyone else have to impose a fee on us for entering into voluntary contractual agreements with one another?


    The document doesn't say that air is necessary either. And no, the Libertarian Party is NOT an Anarchist party.
    The Libertarian is an anarchist/minarchist political party, in fact that is the largest single debate within the party, whether to allow for minarchist elements for the sake of pragmatism or to adhere to principle and remain fully anarchist.


    Only total fools and little children are anarchists.
    GFYS and the state you road in on.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 05-24-10 at 08:40 PM.

  6. #116
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yes, you need the state to punish the crime of murder.
    No you don't, all you need is private arbitration and the right of individual and collective retroactive self defense.

    You need the state to DEFINE the crime of murder.
    No you don't all you need is a societal axiom; such as, the non-aggression principle and/or the right of self ownership.

  7. #117
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, it's not.

    Read the Oresteia, it explains the issues you're confused on.

    Stop reading Marx and Obama.
    lmfao try reading Rothbard, Mises, or Friedman.

    "Marx or Obama" lol you really got me there.

    "Who says anarchy, says negation of government;
    Who says negation of government, says affirmation of the people;
    Who says affirmation of the people, says individual liberty;
    Who says individual liberty, says sovereignty of each;
    Who says sovereignty of each, says equality;
    ...Who says equality, says solidarity or fraternity;
    Who says fraternity, says social order.
    By contrast:
    Who says government, says negation of the people;
    Who says negation of the people, says affirmation of political authority;
    Who says affirmation of political authority, says individual dependency;
    Who says individual dependency, says class supremacy,
    Who says class supremacy, says inequality;
    Who says inequality, says antagonism;
    Who says antagonism, says civil war;
    From which it follows that who says government, says civil war. Yes, anarchy is order, whereas government is civil war. -- Anselme Bellegarrigue

    "Although anarchism rests on liberal intellectual foundations, notably the distinction between state and society, the protean character of the doctrine makes it difficult to disinguish clearly different schools of anarchist thought. But one important distinction is between individualist anarchism and social anarchism. The former emphasizes individual liberty, the sovereignty of the individual, the importance of private property or possession, and the iniquity of all monopolies. It may be seen as liberalism taken to an extreme conclusion. 'Anarcho-capitalism' is a contemporary variant of this school." -- Tom Bottomor

  8. #118
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Also, one should note that the power to tax, under the Constitution written by the Founders, was limited to tariffs on imports. Individuals were not taxed.
    Bull****, they imposed excise taxes all of the time; such as, the Whiskey Act of 1791 which resulted in the Whiskey Rebellion.

  9. #119
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Congress has always had the power to levy taxes and thus the power to steal from the individual.
    And the courts, until the 16th Amendment, have always ruled that taxes in individual income are unconstitutional.

    You could try reading your history sometime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Furthermore; who says the state should have the right to impose tariffs anyways?
    The people who wrote the Constitution of the United States of America, and the state legislatures that ratified it.

    Controlling national borders.

    It's something governments are SUPPOSED to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    What makes that any better than having the power to levy taxes?
    You mean besides the fact that I wouldn't have to fill out thirty pages of BS forms every April? or that the government doesn't have first call on my wages?

    I say that tariffs are better, using this standard, people without standards may FEEL differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    What business is it of yours or anyone else's if I decide to trade my goods with another individual in another country
    It's that border thang. Some people don't understand.

    In some future millenia, there won't be borders, there won't be nations trying to steal from us. Then things will be different.

    In the here and now, borders and the maintenance thereof, are essential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    and what right do you or anyone else have to impose a fee on us for entering into voluntary contractual agreements with one another?
    Borders, buddy. You're crossing the imaginary but very real line between two autonomous and sovereign states. That gives them the authority to regulate your commerce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The Libertarian is an anarchist/minarchist political party,
    Damn, boy. Pick one, anarchist or limited government. It can't be both, not with us that use words correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    in fact that is the largest single debate within the party, whether to allow for minarchist elements for the sake of pragmatism or to adhere to principle and remain fully anarchist.
    Uh, no.

    The Libertarian Party is not an anarchist party. I've been a member for years, and the LP stands for limited government, not no government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    GFYS and the state you road in on.
    Ah, there's your level of competence talking now.

  10. #120
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    Re: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    No you don't, all you need is private arbitration and the right of individual and collective retroactive self defense.



    No you don't all you need is a societal axiom; such as, the non-aggression principle and/or the right of self ownership.
    no, you need to DEFINE the term "murder" before you can legislate penalties for certain actions.

    Not all killing is murder.

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