View Poll Results: Do we know the best rules?

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    8 26.67%
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Thread: The best rules for society

  1. #51
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Thus we know that 2 of "The best rules for society" are 'don't murder' and 'don't steal'; and if we know these rules then we also know that it's not as subjective to the society as others originally argued.
    Precisely, people tend to over complicate things to a wayward extreme.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  2. #52
    Jedi Master
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "Best" = that which most enables and empowers healthy biological imperatives and social structures.
    That's what these guys are saying....

    "That is not even in our constitution. Some of these rights are not good for our culture."

    Gay couple sentenced to maximum 14 years in Malawi - Africa - msnbc.com

    If some people had it their way, the US wouldn't be much different than some third world ****hole's "best rules for society."

    The only thing that's constant is change.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  3. #53
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    You can't define murder without its opposite, justifiable homicide, and and you can't define theft without defining property. Both of these concepts are wholly subjective across cultures.
    Each sub-culture will design definitions which benefit that sub-culture's unique circumstances. That does not negate the universal nicety to establish those definitions, however, which proves the point.

    This is exactly like how languages can very dramatically, but the existence of extremely different languages does not negate Human's need for a language, nore does it change what language is used for.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-20-10 at 04:29 PM.

  4. #54
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    Re: The best rules for society

    I'm a libertarian, so I'm fully familiar with the best rules for society.

  5. #55
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    My apologies, you were talking about the universal rules of society under God. Same difference as the conception of God in Hinduism is different than the conception of God under Judaism and Christianity and Islam. I agree they are the same God but the rules are different.
    I don't think any religion has it quite right...some more than others, but non is perfect. I'm Christian for purely subjective, pragmatic reasons, not because I believe my flavor of Christianity is perfect and flawless.

    In fact the many imperfections of Christianity help me identify with it more, as I am also imperfect.

  6. #56
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    Re: The best rules for society

    The rules are simple, and universal.

    You can pick your own nose.

    You can pick your friend's nose only if he lets you.

    You can't wipe your fingers on the theater seat.

    If you don't want to pick your friend's nose, you don't have to.

    If you believe someone else should be picking your friend's nose, you have the freedom to pay them to do the job. You don't have the freedom to take money from someone else to get the job done.

    You can't punch someone in the nose unless he tries to hit you first.

    It's all about the noses.

  7. #57
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Laws are evolving, based on continuing trial and error. Some conservatives would prefer if they weren't, but stagnating is never a good thing.

  8. #58
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Laws are evolving, based on continuing trial and error. Some conservatives would prefer if they weren't, but stagnating is never a good thing.
    Nor is change for the sake of chamge.

  9. #59
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You have to define precisely what a "healthy" biological imperative is,
    Survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    as well as what "healthy" social structures
    A "healthy" social structure is one which most enables and empowers survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No single set of rules can exist which achieves "healthy" for everyone because everyone's idea of which imperatives and structures are healthy is different.
    The general rule is the basic framework which can be customized to suit specific cultures.

    In an attempt to add variety to my analogies: Any paint-ball fan will tell you that the "best" markers are those which are the most customizable and adaptable. Tipman has a reputation of being a marker which "most enables" a person's play style.

    There's no denying that every team member needs a marker even while each specific marker my very greatly from person to person. A team without markers will not win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    An objective "best" set of rules could only be achieved if there could exist a single set of rules that could most achieve those needs universally.
    Sure. We'll have a control pair of teams with identical equipment. Then we'll have 3 other similarly situated teams, except:
    • team 1 will have equipment identical to the control team;
    • team 2 will have have leeway to customize their gear as much as they desire without limit;
    • and team 3 will have no gear of any kind, not even a cup.


    Each team will compete 3 times as offense, 3 times as defense, randomly determining who goes first.

    I'll put my money on team 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    But because of the differences in what is considered healthy and what is needed, no single set can exist. Only multiple sets of optimal rules for a group and/or individual.
    The basic rule "you need a paint gun" exists even when you are allowed to customize without limit. You bring a stock Spider fresh out of the box. Someone else brings a pair of police training paint pistols and a bandoleer of paint grenades. Another builds a mini-gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Since there is no single one greater than all the others, no best can exist.
    Well I don't know...Korimyr the Rat built a trebuchet and that's one fat paint filled balloon he's loading onto it...he might put us all to shame here in a minute...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Since the thing that defines which one is optimal for a particular group is their view of which imperatives and structures are preferred, it is subjective.
    No, not their view, ie; their opinion...but what actually works in the real world when applied.

    Polygamy doesn't work well in Capitalist societies and Monogamy doesn't work well in nomadic hunter/gatherer societies, but both have the rule that marriage is needed and marriage serves the same purpose just as the paint-ball guns all serve the same purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Actually, all I need to do is prove that there cannot be a single set of rules that would achieve your definition. That excludes any and all possibility of their being an objective "best".
    My point is actually fairly Darwinian: Like organisms, the most successful (ie; "best") rules are the ones which can adapt to the environment better than the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You need to prove that there can exist a single set of rules that would achieve your stated definition of "best" universally for their to exist an objective best.
    The rules are not rigid. They bend with the wind.

    Another example: Every society needs a ritual to mark the end of life. Having a clean brake from an intimate bond with the support of others serves our mental health and our ability to function within that society.

    We don't need every human on the planet to observe a funeral in exactly the same way for this to be true. We don't need everyone on the planet to wear the same thing. We don't all need to burn the body. We don't all need to sing. We don't all need to pray. The rule "people need to mark the end of life" is flexible.

  10. #60
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    Re: The best rules for society

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Laws are evolving, based on continuing trial and error. Some conservatives would prefer if they weren't, but stagnating is never a good thing.
    Conservatives are only against what has already been tried which failed. We're completely open to new things which are either unproven or have a winning track record.

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