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Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

  • Total voters
    51
I think we should not bail them out. First of all, we are still paying off our debt. Second, as Greece suffers, they are throwing the rest of their money into the military while ignoring the cries of the workers. The workers need to continue the protests in Greece until the people who run the show get sent to prison and the government is handed back to the workers.
 
Phantom said:
The workers need to continue the protests in Greece until the people who run the show get sent to prison and the government is handed back to the workers.
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Yeah, killing people in the name of pointless class warfare is a sweet idea...
 
Yossarian said:
Yeah, killing people in the name of pointless class warfare is a sweet idea...
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It isn't pointless. Their government does not represent them. The Greek government has crashed that once stable economy and conned the workers. Another thing, these protesters aren't on a killing rampage. I'm sure you are hearing media coverage that was blown out of proportions yes? Every riot has casualties, you should know this. These casualties aren't deliberate by the protesters as a whole.
 
Yossarian said:
I voted yes.

There's this funny thing going on called 'globalisation' that reaches into everyone's lives. It lets you buy cheap ****ty products from China that you don't need, it lets you talk to your long distance partner on Skype, it enables you to peddle your wares on a global scale and in doing all those things it brings people together. But unfortunately, sometimes an element of that system, whether a good or a bad element, backfires. When that happens, it's not on for people to suddenly return to an isolationist mindset and say, 'well, they can just help themselves out,' because unfortunately the world does not operate that way any more.

An element of all this is that (obviously) capital is highly mobile. Whether people like it or not, the financial interdependence of the world nowadays is such that a crisis in one place equals a crisis everywhere. Let me go on the record and say that the Greek government (whoever was running them over the last decade or so, both right and left parties) was stupendously stupid for running up a huge deficit and debt and I don't condone that in any way. However, they have created a malignant cancer. If it's not cut out, it's going to spread. It is simply not enough for people to say "well, I don't like that there's a cancer, so I'll just let it remain," in the hope that things will magically get better.

The argument against the US bailouts was premised partly on the idea that if a corporation stuffs up, it should be made to collapse. No moral hazard, no bailouts. However, what we are dealing with here is a government, NOT a corporation. And last time I checked, the business of governing in itself was not an element of a free-market system. But one thing is clear: financial markets have taken a look at Greece's problems, and they are not liking it.

Look at the level of fear worldwide when Greece had its credit rating downgraded. People know that Greece is not the only problem country: all the PIGS countries are at risk. The cancer could easily spread. The only response if we allowed to Greece to default on its debt would be more fear, more economic strife. If such a thing were to occur, the problems for the other PIGS countries would multiply and the situation would only get worse.

So there are two choices: don't authorise a bailout, and open the door to the possibility of yet another financial collapse. More unemployment. More wealth lost. And I bet that would leave the people who stood there, middle finger raised, telling the Greeks to **** off, looking pretty silly. OR: bail them out (even if this in itself is not exactly an ideal solution) and stem the risk; cut out the cancer. It makes sense to me.
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So you support spending non-existent money on other countries in hopes it will help lead to globalization? That is scary. America should never become a country integrated into any globalized society. If you look at greek's problems, its their wasteful government spending that got them in this mess, and leave it to a liberal to try and fix wasteful spending with more wasteful spending :roll:
 
Let the Euro zone dig into their pockets for a bailout. I think Germans are getting fed up of being the piggy bank for other countries. Leaving the euro does not seem impossible now, Sarkozy apparently threatened to withdraw from the euro if Merkel did not agree to a bailout.

I still don't understand why they just do not just kick out these countries from the euro.
 
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jamesrage said:
Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

Yes
no
Hell no
I do not know/maybe/other


I say no, **** the EU.


Perhaps this is one of the reasons the media made a big deal out Arizona's anti-illegal immigration law other than their opposition to any anti-illegal immigration law. To distract us while the clowns in office want to give EU 50 billion.


Rep. Pence: US Taxpayers Should Not Have to Bail Out Greece or European Union Nations


Rep. Mike Pence tells Newsmax it’s not the “proper role” for American taxpayers to help bail out a European country any more than it’s proper to expect Europe to bail out a fiscally strapped U.S. state.

The Indiana Republican warns that taxpayers could be stuck with a $50 billion tab for a broad European bailout. And he says that voters can begin the process of repealing Obamacare by voting in a Republican majority in Congress this year.


US Exposure to EU Bailout: $50 Billion and Counting - Yahoo! Finance

US taxpayers could be on the hook for $50 billion or more as part of the European debt bailout, which is likely to be a close cousin to the strategy used to rescue the American financial system.
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did they pitch in and help us?
 
Dezaad said:
There's the possibility that bailing them out will make your stocks go up.
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That's not a possibility. That's an actual fact. The stock market had a huge rally when the Greece debt package was released.

If Europe has a serious debt crisis any more then it has now, we will go back to a recession.

$50 billion is a cheap price to pay IMO.
 
The American people don't have a choice. The EU is getting a bail out. The people in control of the financial system don't care if it's your money or not.
 
Orion said:
The American people don't have a choice. The EU is getting a bail out. The people in control of the financial system don't care if it's your money or not.
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Indeed. This is happening and already has happened. About a trillion dollars is now available in the European credit markets that previously wasn't there. That's pretty massive.

This is what I don't get:

If the naysayers had their way, our banking system and much of the West would be in shambles if not worse. There would literally be no credit whatsoever. We'd see a repeat of the South Korea bankruptcies, except on a truly epic scale. This would in fact be a depression. They'd be clamoring for someone's head as to why they didn't stop this mess.

Essentially, these people complain either way.

Is this due to ignorance or something else?
 
obvious Child said:
If the naysayers had their way, our banking system and much of the West would be in shambles if not worse. There would literally be no credit whatsoever. We'd see a repeat of the South Korea bankruptcies, except on a truly epic scale. This would in fact be a depression.
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Given the expanded powers of the Federal Reserve, I would say that the system is designed to cause collapse. The UN is already talking about a global basket currency to replace the U.S. dollar. Once the dollar collapses (and it will, purposefully), the major players in governments of several countries will be in a position to establish new global governance.

The reckless spending you are seeing in congress is part of that, and I don't care if people slam me for being a conspiracy theorist. Governments can make some incredibly stupid policies, but willful spending in the amounts we are seeing is an intentional attempt to sabotage the system.
 
I am absolutely fed up with America "bailing" out Europe. Europe has a long record for not being able to solve its own problems. Because of this, Europe has become not just a burden to America, but a burden to everyone in the Western alliance. What's that proverb? Something about feeding a man a fish vs. teaching him how to fish? Well Europe has become entirely too comfortable with expecting others to come to their aid. They needed us to help them sort out their First World War. With the League of Nations left in their hands, they wound up needing us to help them sort out their Second World War. They needed our money through the Cold War to recover. They needed us to deal with Bosnia and Kosovo. Now they show signs of needing our treasure once again at a time we need it for ourselves? Oh, and in the mean time they begrudgingly assist our efforts in Afghanistan while insisting that they remain as far from the fight as possible. After a century of needing us to help them figure out their internal problems, Afghanistan was how they gave us thanks and a fair reach around.

Until we say "not this time," Europe will continue to be that region that can't fix its own problems and eventually forces others to have to be involved. Germany is fed up with the rest of Europe. France is angered over how quickly the "unity" of the EU proves as fragile as most of us already knew it was. Greece and Spain have become burdens that the rest bicker over. With Europe once again showing that their tribal makeup forever transcends some silly notion of unity, why should America rush to preserve the illusion?

Besides all this....after being accused of not minding our own business or being the "world policeman" by the streak of anti-Americanism inside Europe for decades, how accomodating would it be for us to mind our own business? Sweet irony.
 
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yes, but...if we don't bail them out, who do you think they'll turn to? Could turn to the Middle East, ugly for us. Or to China, which isn't quite as ugly, but definitely not a pretty picture.
 
TheServantCharles said:
yes, but...if we don't bail them out, who do you think they'll turn to? Could turn to the Middle East, ugly for us. Or to China, which isn't quite as ugly, but definitely not a pretty picture.
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Europe and America have developed a certain mentality over the last century. Europeans have discovered that eventually America will get involved, which leaves them with a certain attitude of not having to be completely responsible for themselves. America has developed a sense that it must be involved if only to preserve the lives and economy of its own.

It's a burdensom relationship. Let them turn to the Middle East. How ironic would that be considering that the unnnatural borders throughout, which has caused great violence between tribes, was of their making.

I would suggest that, instead of turning to somebody outside of Europe for aid, they fix their own problems for a change. Wasn't that what the "unity" of the EU was supposed to do? Isn't that what de Gaulle preached about? An independent Europe isn't really independent if it keeps having to depend on outsiders from crisis to crisis. Instead of criticizing America's "bail outs" to get a wrangle hold on our own economic woes, they should have been more proactive in dealing with theirs. But because they started dealing with it so late in the game, their economic woes will linger. This is what happens when the tribes deliberate to exhaustion under the illusion of EU unity.
 
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MSgt said:
Besides all this....after being accused of not minding our own business or being the "world policeman" by the streak of anti-Americanism inside Europe for decades, how accomodating would it be for us to mind our own business? Sweet irony.
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I take it, then, that you think it's entirely appropriate to watch someone else's house burn to the ground just so you can smirk at them and say, "Told you so," yes?
 
MSgt said:
Europe and America have developed a certain mentality over the last century. Europeans have discovered that eventually America will get involved, which leaves them with a certain attitude of not having to be completely responsible for themselves. America has developed a sense that it must be involved if only to preserve the lives and economy of its own.

It's a burdensom relationship. Let them turn to the Middle East. How ironic would that be considering that the unnnatural borders throughout, which has caused great violence between tribes, was of their making.
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What your model of world politics leaves out is that the United States has had a significant role in creating many of the fires that we subsequently exhaust ourselves trying to put out.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I take it, then, that you think it's entirely appropriate to watch someone else's house burn to the ground just so you can smirk at them and say, "Told you so," yes?
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I think people should be held responsible for their own actions and behaviors. Governments and nations are no different. Until we sit out and watch, Europe will be forever excused from their own instigated lessons.
 
TheServantCharles said:
yes, but...if we don't bail them out, who do you think they'll turn to? Could turn to the Middle East, ugly for us. Or to China, which isn't quite as ugly, but definitely not a pretty picture.
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I could care less if they turn to the middle east or China for help. If China and the middle east want to be stupid enough to help them then let them.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
What your model of world politics leaves out is that the United States has had a significant role in creating many of the fires that we subsequently exhaust ourselves trying to put out.
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This is an exaggeration. When called onto the carpet, it's always the same old insignificant examples that prove the exaggeration. The Shah? This is an isolated event for which the British were originally responsible for (scares of communist intervention) and Iranians later "fixed" with Khomeini. Afghanistan? A product of the Cold War (which began in Europe) for which we have not washed our hands of. Our involvement in the rest of the Middle East consists of dealing with established powers and maintaining European creations during the Cold War. But in the end, these fires you speak of have come from Muslim behavior, not American. And much of these fires are preferable to World Wars, which is what the mission has been to prevent.

Who slashed lines across tribes throughout Africa and the Middle East? Who created Frankenstein's monsters nations behind unnatural borders? Who created the Palestinian/Israeli mess? And who ultimately completely washed their hands of it? The world was made wrong by kings, kaisers, and czars. Everywhere where American boots have been on the ground since the Berlin Wall came down is a legacy of European colonialism and designs, not American. The fires America has been largely putting out came from European crayolas. Every conflict, cleansing, and genocide between tribes in Africa, the Middle East, and Europe is of European cause.
 
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MSgt said:
Europe and America have developed a certain mentality over the last century. Europeans have discovered that eventually America will get involved, which leaves them with a certain attitude of not having to be completely responsible for themselves. America has developed a sense that it must be involved if only to preserve the lives and economy of its own.

It's a burdensom relationship. Let them turn to the Middle East. How ironic would that be considering that the unnnatural borders throughout, which has caused great violence between tribes, was of their making.

I would suggest that, instead of turning to somebody outside of Europe for aid, they fix their own problems for a change. Wasn't that what the "unity" of the EU was supposed to do? Isn't that what de Gaulle preached about? An independent Europe isn't really independent if it keeps having to depend on outsiders from crisis to crisis. Instead of criticizing America's "bail outs" to get a wrangle hold on our own economic woes, they should have been more proactive in dealing with theirs. But because they started dealing with it so late in the game, their economic woes will linger. This is what happens when the tribes deliberate to exhaustion under the illusion of EU unity.
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The U.S. has had a consistent interest in Europe over its own self-interest, from the Marshal Plan to Cold War politics. The U.S. has done everything to ensure that its form of capitalism can thrive worldwide, so naturally it is going to bail out Europe in order to secure its overseas investments.

I think you focus too much on the minutiae of politics and diplomacy while ignoring the important points of economics. Regardless if the EU is weak or not, if it goes down the U.S. stands to lose a lot. This is the era of complex interdependence and globalization. And you forget the most basic tenet of politics... states act in their own self-interest. The U.S. wouldn't be bailing out Greece unless there were direct benefits to itself.

I've always enjoyed your analysis of international relations but to be honest it's becoming a bit trite and predictable. You always have something negative to say about the Middle East and Europe while painting the U.S. as the savior and the one stable force in the world.

I wish my views could be so black and white.
 
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Orion said:
The U.S. has had a consistent interest in Europe over its own self-interest, from the Marshal Plan to Cold War politics. The U.S. has done everything to ensure that its form of capitalism can thrive worldwide, so naturally it is going to bail out Europe in order to secure its overseas investments.
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Naturally. There shouldn't be any dispute about this. A secure America has always meant a healthy Europe.

Orion said:
I think you focus too much on the minutiae of politics and diplomacy while ignoring the important points of economics.
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Well, I'm not really ignoring it. Just tired of the attitudes as if the entire twentieth century didn't happen. Life is hard enough without having to constantly worry about another region's health anymore, especially one that had the luxury of half a century to make it so. The Middle East is about all we can handle at the moment. I would like to have a Europe that emerged from the Cold War as truly independant and globally useful.

Orion said:
I wish my views could be so black and white.
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I'm actually feeling predictable anymore. I'm just tired of fluffing it out. In the end, the U.S./Europe relationship has become black and white. We have both evolved into designed roles and we can't get out of it. I think I've analyzed it too much and keep coming to the same conclusions. We get criticized for our "world policeman" or "big brother" status, but that is exactly what other regions have insisted of us.
 
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