View Poll Results: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

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  • Yes

    3 4.76%
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    16 25.40%
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    38 60.32%
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Thread: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I take it, then, that you think it's entirely appropriate to watch someone else's house burn to the ground just so you can smirk at them and say, "Told you so," yes?
    I think people should be held responsible for their own actions and behaviors. Governments and nations are no different. Until we sit out and watch, Europe will be forever excused from their own instigated lessons.

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  2. #42
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheServantCharles View Post
    yes, but...if we don't bail them out, who do you think they'll turn to? Could turn to the Middle East, ugly for us. Or to China, which isn't quite as ugly, but definitely not a pretty picture.
    I could care less if they turn to the middle east or China for help. If China and the middle east want to be stupid enough to help them then let them.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #43
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    What your model of world politics leaves out is that the United States has had a significant role in creating many of the fires that we subsequently exhaust ourselves trying to put out.
    This is an exaggeration. When called onto the carpet, it's always the same old insignificant examples that prove the exaggeration. The Shah? This is an isolated event for which the British were originally responsible for (scares of communist intervention) and Iranians later "fixed" with Khomeini. Afghanistan? A product of the Cold War (which began in Europe) for which we have not washed our hands of. Our involvement in the rest of the Middle East consists of dealing with established powers and maintaining European creations during the Cold War. But in the end, these fires you speak of have come from Muslim behavior, not American. And much of these fires are preferable to World Wars, which is what the mission has been to prevent.

    Who slashed lines across tribes throughout Africa and the Middle East? Who created Frankenstein's monsters nations behind unnatural borders? Who created the Palestinian/Israeli mess? And who ultimately completely washed their hands of it? The world was made wrong by kings, kaisers, and czars. Everywhere where American boots have been on the ground since the Berlin Wall came down is a legacy of European colonialism and designs, not American. The fires America has been largely putting out came from European crayolas. Every conflict, cleansing, and genocide between tribes in Africa, the Middle East, and Europe is of European cause.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-22-10 at 03:27 PM.

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  4. #44
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Europe and America have developed a certain mentality over the last century. Europeans have discovered that eventually America will get involved, which leaves them with a certain attitude of not having to be completely responsible for themselves. America has developed a sense that it must be involved if only to preserve the lives and economy of its own.

    It's a burdensom relationship. Let them turn to the Middle East. How ironic would that be considering that the unnnatural borders throughout, which has caused great violence between tribes, was of their making.

    I would suggest that, instead of turning to somebody outside of Europe for aid, they fix their own problems for a change. Wasn't that what the "unity" of the EU was supposed to do? Isn't that what de Gaulle preached about? An independent Europe isn't really independent if it keeps having to depend on outsiders from crisis to crisis. Instead of criticizing America's "bail outs" to get a wrangle hold on our own economic woes, they should have been more proactive in dealing with theirs. But because they started dealing with it so late in the game, their economic woes will linger. This is what happens when the tribes deliberate to exhaustion under the illusion of EU unity.
    The U.S. has had a consistent interest in Europe over its own self-interest, from the Marshal Plan to Cold War politics. The U.S. has done everything to ensure that its form of capitalism can thrive worldwide, so naturally it is going to bail out Europe in order to secure its overseas investments.

    I think you focus too much on the minutiae of politics and diplomacy while ignoring the important points of economics. Regardless if the EU is weak or not, if it goes down the U.S. stands to lose a lot. This is the era of complex interdependence and globalization. And you forget the most basic tenet of politics... states act in their own self-interest. The U.S. wouldn't be bailing out Greece unless there were direct benefits to itself.

    I've always enjoyed your analysis of international relations but to be honest it's becoming a bit trite and predictable. You always have something negative to say about the Middle East and Europe while painting the U.S. as the savior and the one stable force in the world.

    I wish my views could be so black and white.
    Last edited by Orion; 05-22-10 at 04:19 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The U.S. has had a consistent interest in Europe over its own self-interest, from the Marshal Plan to Cold War politics. The U.S. has done everything to ensure that its form of capitalism can thrive worldwide, so naturally it is going to bail out Europe in order to secure its overseas investments.
    Naturally. There shouldn't be any dispute about this. A secure America has always meant a healthy Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I think you focus too much on the minutiae of politics and diplomacy while ignoring the important points of economics.
    Well, I'm not really ignoring it. Just tired of the attitudes as if the entire twentieth century didn't happen. Life is hard enough without having to constantly worry about another region's health anymore, especially one that had the luxury of half a century to make it so. The Middle East is about all we can handle at the moment. I would like to have a Europe that emerged from the Cold War as truly independant and globally useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I wish my views could be so black and white.
    I'm actually feeling predictable anymore. I'm just tired of fluffing it out. In the end, the U.S./Europe relationship has become black and white. We have both evolved into designed roles and we can't get out of it. I think I've analyzed it too much and keep coming to the same conclusions. We get criticized for our "world policeman" or "big brother" status, but that is exactly what other regions have insisted of us.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-23-10 at 05:04 PM.

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