View Poll Results: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

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  • Yes

    3 4.76%
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    16 25.40%
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    38 60.32%
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Thread: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    If the IMF as a whole decides that it wants to bailout the EU I think we have an obligation to go along. However, I don't know if this is under consideration or even warrented at the moment. If it looks like a default could cause a catagion it might be wise and in the end cheaper to do so.

  2. #22
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    They're making my stocks go down. I don't like them, so **** bailing them out.
    There's the possibility that bailing them out will make your stocks go up.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I voted yes.

    It is simply not enough for people to say "well, I don't like that there's a cancer, so I'll just let it remain," in the hope that things will magically get better.
    Throwing money at a country who is suffering due to years spent under a corrupt government isn't going to magically make it better, either.


    So there are two choices: don't authorise a bailout, and open the door to the possibility of yet another financial collapse. More unemployment. More wealth lost. And I bet that would leave the people who stood there, middle finger raised, telling the Greeks to **** off, looking pretty silly. OR: bail them out (even if this in itself is not exactly an ideal solution) and stem the risk; cut out the cancer. It makes sense to me.
    Oh, there are more than two choices out there. Actually I don't buy either of your two choices. I wouldn't hold up my finger to them or bail them out. The first is just rude and the 2nd won't help in the long run because the problem is their corrupt government. Giving a corrupt government money doesn't do anything but make a corrupt government that much richer.
    We're not part of the EU, which was formed in part to compete with us, don't forget. They knew the risks going in when they formed the EU. Healthier countries (in the EU) might get pulled down by weaker countries (in the EU). *WE* didn't sign up for that! The choice I favor is staying the h*ll out of it because it's not up to us to change the government of Greece. Maybe the EU can have some effect on that?? I don't know. We're not in the EU.

  4. #24
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I voted yes.

    There's this funny thing going on called 'globalisation' that reaches into everyone's lives. It lets you buy cheap ****ty products from China that you don't need, it lets you talk to your long distance partner on Skype, it enables you to peddle your wares on a global scale and in doing all those things it brings people together. But unfortunately, sometimes an element of that system, whether a good or a bad element, backfires. When that happens, it's not on for people to suddenly return to an isolationist mindset and say, 'well, they can just help themselves out,' because unfortunately the world does not operate that way any more.

    An element of all this is that (obviously) capital is highly mobile. Whether people like it or not, the financial interdependence of the world nowadays is such that a crisis in one place equals a crisis everywhere. Let me go on the record and say that the Greek government (whoever was running them over the last decade or so, both right and left parties) was stupendously stupid for running up a huge deficit and debt and I don't condone that in any way. However, they have created a malignant cancer. If it's not cut out, it's going to spread. It is simply not enough for people to say "well, I don't like that there's a cancer, so I'll just let it remain," in the hope that things will magically get better.

    The argument against the US bailouts was premised partly on the idea that if a corporation stuffs up, it should be made to collapse. No moral hazard, no bailouts. However, what we are dealing with here is a government, NOT a corporation. And last time I checked, the business of governing in itself was not an element of a free-market system. But one thing is clear: financial markets have taken a look at Greece's problems, and they are not liking it.

    Look at the level of fear worldwide when Greece had its credit rating downgraded. People know that Greece is not the only problem country: all the PIGS countries are at risk. The cancer could easily spread. The only response if we allowed to Greece to default on its debt would be more fear, more economic strife. If such a thing were to occur, the problems for the other PIGS countries would multiply and the situation would only get worse.

    So there are two choices: don't authorise a bailout, and open the door to the possibility of yet another financial collapse. More unemployment. More wealth lost. And I bet that would leave the people who stood there, middle finger raised, telling the Greeks to **** off, looking pretty silly. OR: bail them out (even if this in itself is not exactly an ideal solution) and stem the risk; cut out the cancer. It makes sense to me.
    Overall, I agree with your post, or at least concede that you might be correct. However, the part I bolded, about the 'moral hazard'. I disagree with you and judge that it applies whether it is a corporation or country. Governments are charged with responsibly seeing to the prosperity of their people. If they take large risks and then are bailed out when it blows up in their face, we are essentially taking 'Risk' and placing it in the commons.

    What this does is allow all nations, just like corporations, to ignore risk when making financial decisions. They know they can externalize the consequences of risk taking. This has a high potential for an even larger catastrophe. If all nations know that they can externalize risk, some will fall to temptation and take on too much. At first, those that do so will be the most competitive. Others could be tempted to make the same calculation and follow suit, just in order to compete. This would be a downward spiral leading to utter catastrophe. In essence, a new take on the tragedy of the commons, one with very dire consequences.

    There is one vital difference in bailouts to nations as opposed to corporations: You can practice tough love and force errant nations to agree to austerity measures, as the EU is rightly doing in the case of Greece. You can't do this with the people who profit from errant corporations, at least not effectively. With corporations, the people who profited have probably already sold their stock in the company, after all. The people that austerity measures hurt when applied to corporations are mostly the workers. They are the ones who lose their jobs during an economic downturn. Why should they be punished for decisions made by top management.

    So, at least in the case of nations, we can push for the people of those nations to endure the consequences of not having elected good government. We pretty much avoid the moral hazard that way. And therefore, I would be for bailouts for nations (as long as austerity is part of the package) before I would be for bailouts for corporations.

    As a postscript, I would add this food for thought: I have heard neurosis described as the avoidance of necessary pain. When a pathology of avoidance is set up, it is inevitable that far greater pain will be felt down the path. It seems to be that it is the human condition that it is necessary for us to feel pain, on occasion, and that when we avoid it, either personally or collectively, we end up worse off.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  5. #25
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    Throwing money at a country who is suffering due to years spent under a corrupt government isn't going to magically make it better, either.
    Well yeah...why is why the EU/IMF are specifically stipulating strict austerity measures to rein in government spending if Greece and other countries want to receive their bailout money.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    Oh, there are more than two choices out there. Actually I don't buy either of your two choices. I wouldn't hold up my finger to them or bail them out. The first is just rude and the 2nd won't help in the long run because the problem is their corrupt government. Giving a corrupt government money doesn't do anything but make a corrupt government that much richer.
    We're not part of the EU, which was formed in part to compete with us, don't forget. They knew the risks going in when they formed the EU. Healthier countries (in the EU) might get pulled down by weaker countries (in the EU). *WE* didn't sign up for that! The choice I favor is staying the h*ll out of it because it's not up to us to change the government of Greece. Maybe the EU can have some effect on that?? I don't know. We're not in the EU.
    The choices are to either bail them out or not. The only variables are how much money to give them and what conditions are placed on its provision.

    But 'we' (that is the US and Oz as well) are both part of this world financial system which may very well collapse horribly all over again if we fail to act on it. In realist terms, we're not doing it to help out Greece or the EU. In a morally perfect world they should atone for their own sins. We're bailing them out to help ourselves.

    Also I should probably add that the IMF is an international institution (even if the US has veto power insofar as voting is concerned) and as far as I know the bailout money is coming from several countries within the IMF (don't know for sure though). So the U.S. isn't bailing anyone out per se if that is the case.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 05-20-10 at 03:23 AM.

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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    I think we should not bail them out. First of all, we are still paying off our debt. Second, as Greece suffers, they are throwing the rest of their money into the military while ignoring the cries of the workers. The workers need to continue the protests in Greece until the people who run the show get sent to prison and the government is handed back to the workers.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
    The workers need to continue the protests in Greece until the people who run the show get sent to prison and the government is handed back to the workers.
    Yeah, killing people in the name of pointless class warfare is a sweet idea...

  8. #28
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yeah, killing people in the name of pointless class warfare is a sweet idea...
    It isn't pointless. Their government does not represent them. The Greek government has crashed that once stable economy and conned the workers. Another thing, these protesters aren't on a killing rampage. I'm sure you are hearing media coverage that was blown out of proportions yes? Every riot has casualties, you should know this. These casualties aren't deliberate by the protesters as a whole.
    Vote John Schnatter (Papa John) 2012!

  9. #29
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I voted yes.

    There's this funny thing going on called 'globalisation' that reaches into everyone's lives. It lets you buy cheap ****ty products from China that you don't need, it lets you talk to your long distance partner on Skype, it enables you to peddle your wares on a global scale and in doing all those things it brings people together. But unfortunately, sometimes an element of that system, whether a good or a bad element, backfires. When that happens, it's not on for people to suddenly return to an isolationist mindset and say, 'well, they can just help themselves out,' because unfortunately the world does not operate that way any more.

    An element of all this is that (obviously) capital is highly mobile. Whether people like it or not, the financial interdependence of the world nowadays is such that a crisis in one place equals a crisis everywhere. Let me go on the record and say that the Greek government (whoever was running them over the last decade or so, both right and left parties) was stupendously stupid for running up a huge deficit and debt and I don't condone that in any way. However, they have created a malignant cancer. If it's not cut out, it's going to spread. It is simply not enough for people to say "well, I don't like that there's a cancer, so I'll just let it remain," in the hope that things will magically get better.

    The argument against the US bailouts was premised partly on the idea that if a corporation stuffs up, it should be made to collapse. No moral hazard, no bailouts. However, what we are dealing with here is a government, NOT a corporation. And last time I checked, the business of governing in itself was not an element of a free-market system. But one thing is clear: financial markets have taken a look at Greece's problems, and they are not liking it.

    Look at the level of fear worldwide when Greece had its credit rating downgraded. People know that Greece is not the only problem country: all the PIGS countries are at risk. The cancer could easily spread. The only response if we allowed to Greece to default on its debt would be more fear, more economic strife. If such a thing were to occur, the problems for the other PIGS countries would multiply and the situation would only get worse.

    So there are two choices: don't authorise a bailout, and open the door to the possibility of yet another financial collapse. More unemployment. More wealth lost. And I bet that would leave the people who stood there, middle finger raised, telling the Greeks to **** off, looking pretty silly. OR: bail them out (even if this in itself is not exactly an ideal solution) and stem the risk; cut out the cancer. It makes sense to me.
    So you support spending non-existent money on other countries in hopes it will help lead to globalization? That is scary. America should never become a country integrated into any globalized society. If you look at greek's problems, its their wasteful government spending that got them in this mess, and leave it to a liberal to try and fix wasteful spending with more wasteful spending

  10. #30
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    Re: Should American tax payers help bailout EU?

    Let the Euro zone dig into their pockets for a bailout. I think Germans are getting fed up of being the piggy bank for other countries. Leaving the euro does not seem impossible now, Sarkozy apparently threatened to withdraw from the euro if Merkel did not agree to a bailout.

    I still don't understand why they just do not just kick out these countries from the euro.
    Last edited by Laila; 05-20-10 at 01:16 PM.


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