View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

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    Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

    What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?


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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

    What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?
    The legal documents that they wrote (i.e. the constitution, bill of rights, declaration of independence, etc.) provide a framework for our government, but beyond that their opinions/thoughts/etc. are meaningless to the world of today. Once they no longer held official government positions (or at the very least once they were dead), their opinions on how the constitution/etc. should be interpreted ceased to be relevant.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    That might've been me, except that I said they were misogynistic slave-owners (ie, products of their time) so who cares what they thought.
    Which was a rhetorical question, by the way, because I know who cares: lots of people.
    But I don't.
    The constitution is of no more interest or relevance to me than the bible.
    Ancient documents written by savages, who wouldn't have considered me- or the black family next door- human, or deserving of the same rights they so generously afforded themselves.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.
    I said that yesterday

    However my opinion on the matter is just that. They are dead and they had ideas that were good and appropriate for the society they found themselves in. Today things a different and that means we should have ideas that are appropriate for today. However, they did get many things right, in my view, so in reference to this poll, I think I will land on the idea that we need to build off what they did for two reasons.

    1. Some aspects of human nature do not change regardless of technology and the constitution does a fairly good job in recognizing that, but their theories are not complete, and since we know a lot more about psychology and brain mechanics these days, I would like to see some of the assumptions about human nature that are placed in the constitution updated to reflect our present level of knowledge about humanity and what that means for our necessary rights.

    2. You cannot simply transform the constitution without massive legal, governmental, and other authority problems. So for the sake of a peaceful social order, it would be better to expand and update.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 05-15-10 at 10:44 AM.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    That might've been me, except that I said they were misogynistic slave-owners (ie, products of their time) so who cares what they thought.
    Which was a rhetorical question, by the way, because I know who cares: lots of people.
    But I don't.
    The constitution is of no more interest or relevance to me than the bible.
    Ancient documents written by savages, who wouldn't have considered me- or the black family next door- human, or deserving of the same rights they so generously afforded themselves.
    Yea, despite the fact that many of the Founders were the first abolitionists, most notably Benjamin Franklin, but don't let that get in the way of your revisionist history.

    As for my part, I've yet to come across a more brilliant group of political philosophers and legal minds; anyone who says their opinions are worthless is worthless themselves.

    If it weren't for those racist misogynists, you'd probably still be living under a dictatorship instead of a Constitutional Republic that places individual liberty above all else.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I said that yesterday

    However my opinion on the matter is just that. They are dead and they had ideas that were good and appropriate for the society they found themselves in. Today things a different and that means we should have ideas that are appropriate for today. However, they did get many things right, in my view, so in reference to this poll, I think I will land on the idea that we need to build off what they did for two reasons.

    1. Some aspects of human nature do not change regardless of technology and the constitution does a fairly good job in recognizing that, but their theories are not complete, and since we know a lot more about psychology and brain mechanics these days, I would like to see some of the assumptions about human nature that are placed in the constitution updated to our present level of knowledge about humanity and what that means for our necessary rights.

    2. You cannot simply transform the constitution without massive legal, governmental, and other authority problems. So for the sake of a peaceful social order, it would be better to expand and update.
    A lame attempt to sweep a complex political and ethical philosophy under the rug with soundbites and empty platitudes.

    Sorry, but it's going to take more than two paragraphs on an internet forum to adequately address the entirety of the Founders' theories and philosophies.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    A lame attempt to sweep a complex political and ethical philosophy under the rug with soundbites and empty platitudes.

    Sorry, but it's going to take more than two paragraphs on an internet forum to adequately address the entirety of the Founders' theories and philosophies.
    I tend to post summaries of my thoughts due to the medium and my own laziness. If you have a concern or question about my thoughts, feel free to ask and I will be happy to have a discussion and expand on it. Just try to be specific since this tends to be a deep subject.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I tend to post summaries of my thoughts due to the medium and my own laziness. If you have a concern or question about my thoughts, feel free to ask and I will be happy to have a discussion and expand on it. Just try to be specific since this tends to be a deep subject.
    You said, "Their theories are incomplete."

    1. Which theories are you talking about, specifically? Could you cite them?

    2. Why are they incomplete?

    You also bring up our advanced knowledge of neuroscience, as if this renders their incites into basic human nature obsolete. Why would an increased understanding of our neural makeup render their incites into basic human nature obsolete?

    You see, I have a problem with people who assume increased technology automatically translates into increased intelligence or perceptiveness. Humans are pretty simple creatures at the end of the day. We like to marvel at our own so-called knowledge, but we're really just a bunch of intelligent primates; fundamentally, we're no different than the first humans.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    The founding fathers to a certain extent are worms in horseradish (the world is horseradish).

    The founding fathers to another extent manifested Enlightenment philosophy into a government.

    The founding fathers to a final extent are portrayed as men of their time (with much props to the ladies in their lives) who created a strong and stable system of government. One based on the idea of middle-class rule.

    I think we should leave it as that and not interpret the founding father's ideology and philosophy to be more correct than ideologies and philosophies of today's fathers.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    The founding fathers to a certain extent are worms in horseradish (the world is horseradish).

    The founding fathers to another extent manifested Enlightenment philosophy into a government.

    The founding fathers to a final extent are portrayed as men of their time (with much props to the ladies in their lives) who created a strong and stable system of government. One based on the idea of middle-class rule.

    I think we should leave it as that and not interpret the founding father's ideology and philosophy to be more correct than ideologies and philosophies of today's fathers.
    There are only so many ways to look at human nature; there are even less ways to form a government around those perceptions.

    People don't realize that "new" philosophies and ideologies don't really exist anymore. Somebody has already thought of it, and probably put it into better words.

    FUNDAMENTALLY, humans haven't changed one bit. We're still a bunch of fickle, self-centered animals who will only refrain from butchering one another if there's enough resources to go around, although that is no guarantee...

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