View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #61
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Great, you know what Madison's view was. What was Hamilton's?
    And one must remember that Hamilton wrote the bulk of the Federalist Papers (Hamilton 51, Madison 29, Jay 5). It is Hamilton in Federalist 78 that set the groundwork for judicial review, and it is Hamilton who recognized the importance in Constitutional interpretation because of societal changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #62
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Was he specific?
    The phrase is as comprehensive as any that could have been used; because it was not fit that the constitutional authority of the Union, to appropriate its revenues shou'd have been restricted within narrower limits than the "General Welfare" and because this necessarily embraces a vast variety of particulars, which are susceptible neither of specification nor of definition. -Alexander Hamilton, Report on Manufactures
    You can read his report here:
    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1: Alexander Hamilton, Report on Manufactures

  3. #63
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    They are using an appeal to authority as a mean of making their argument.
    That does not mean that they are treating the FF as gods.
    In the sense that they treat them as superhumans whose opinions are more important than those of average Americans, yes, they are.

    Such people treat the founding fathers as if they were unified, saw themselves as superhuman, and were incapable of error. The founding fathers would have been appalled to be treated in that way. They saw themselves as average men.

  4. #64
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    In the sense that they treat them as superhumans whose opinions are more important than those of average Americans, yes, they are.

    Such people treat the founding fathers as if they were unified, saw themselves as superhuman, and were incapable of error. The founding fathers would have been appalled to be treated in that way. They saw themselves as average men.
    They were very intelligent people, capable of all sorts of natural human errors.
    Compared to the rest of the U.S. their ideas were definitely more important, in my opinion.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Compared to the rest of the U.S. their ideas were definitely more important, in my opinion.
    Why? They never used a computer, flew on an airplane, or fought a war in another country across the ocean. They were farmers and silversmiths and country lawyers.

    Were they important? Sure. But they never intended the government of this nation to be set in an unchanging stasis dictated by the mores and beliefs of the early 19th century.

  6. #66
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    They were very intelligent people, capable of all sorts of natural human errors.
    Compared to the rest of the U.S. their ideas were definitely more important, in my opinion.
    I would say that their ideas weren't more important. Their ideas were more original and important for the time in which they lived. I'm not sure if a group of original thinkers, who also had the ability to put their thoughts into practice has existed before or since. The FF's great attribute was that their ideas had not been though of previously and/or they were able to enact these thoughts. They were not gods. They were very smart people at the right time in history.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #67
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Where is the right to keep and bear arms addressed? See if you can tell me.
    Specifically? Amendment II.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Specifically? Amendment II.
    You mean the constitution could be AMENDED? (i.e. changed)

    SHOCKING!

  9. #69
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Why? They never used a computer, flew on an airplane, or fought a war in another country across the ocean. They were farmers and silversmiths and country lawyers.
    Well, if I recall correctly, Franklin did go over to Paris and help stir up the revolution. Spoke at salons, etc. He was part of the inspiration for it, I believe.
    A small part.
    But no, he did not do any actual fighting.

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I would say that their ideas weren't more important. Their ideas were more original and important for the time in which they lived. I'm not sure if a group of original thinkers, who also had the ability to put their thoughts into practice has existed before or since. The FF's great attribute was that their ideas had not been though of previously and/or they were able to enact these thoughts. They were not gods. They were very smart people at the right time in history.
    I think you're getting close to my opinion, which is that they were original thinkers, your term not mine and I like it, implementing their ideas and publishing their thoughtful opinions about it in the Federalist Papers, The Federalist Papers were of course published in New York periodicals to bring to public the thinking behind the compromise and balance of the Constitution.

    What makes these writings so important is that they are the first thoughtful arguments made in favor of the Constitution. They have already had many of the discussions that you all will recycle. Between the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers you get a good picture of the issues that are still as pertinent today.

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