View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #21
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Yes, I do. If they wanted it to be interpreted in a particular way, they should have written the document so that it could be interpreted in ONLY that way.
    The majority of the Constitution WAS written so as to be interpreted in a specific and easily defined manner, yet we still have intellectually dishonest liberals and progressives who think black is white and up is down; just look at their creative view of the Second Amendment, for starters.

    Doesn't sound at all absurd to me. Certainly no more so than the idea that the opinions of men who've been dead for 200 years should count for more in how we run our country than the opinions of people alive today who actually have to live here.
    This country was FOUNDED BY THEM. They FOUGHT AND DIED so that you could freely malign them from the comfort of your private property. Their opinions are not more important, but they are certainly still relevant.

    You're just a typical liberal ingrate.

    I didn't say that.
    That's precisely what you're saying. If you think we should totally disregard the views of our Founders when interpreting the document THEY WROTE then you're throwing that part of our history into the dustbin.

    Your views creep me out just as much.
    What's creepy about maximizing individual liberty!? Is there something wrong with wanting to be left alone by intrusive government and liberal busy-bodies?

    How Orwellian of you...

  2. #22
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Actually, if the dead man's opinions were written down, the judge should find much interest in them to decide on some perceived ambiguity.

    What is ambiguous in the Constitution? It is clear and well-written.
    Some examples of ambiguity.

    Article I section 8, the infamous "general welfare" clause.

    The difference in wording between Article I section 1 and Article II section 1, and the fact that 'executive power' in article II section 1 is not defined.

    Article II section 4, which states that the president should be impeached for treason, bribery, and certain other 'high crimes and misdemeanors', but neither defines 'high crimes and misdemeanors' nor offers any suggestions as to exactly how the chief executive should be removed from office.

    Article III section 3 which defines treason partly as 'giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the united states', but does not specify what exactly construes 'giving aid and comfort'.

    Heck, even minor things such as the use of 'from time to time' when requiring things like state of the union addresses and publishing the journal of congressional proceedings.

    There are tons of things in the constitution that are ambiguous and open to interpretation.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  3. #23
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Yes and I stand by that. Propaganda as a political tool is about 100 years old I think.
    You are absolutely one-percent wrong.

    This does not mean some editor of some newspaper didn't tailor articles to their view on things. Those are two completely different animals. Jefferson was addressing one, but not the other.
    And what are you basing this on, exactly? Your extensive knowledge of editing techniques during post-Revolutionary America? You've already demonstrated your ignorance of basic political history (propaganda is only 100 years old) as well as a limited understanding of the Founders' writings. Why should I take your assessments seriously when they're just ill-conceived and largely unsubstantiated?

    One is an applied discipline while the other is just editing or writing with a viewpoint.
    You really think modern marketing is more effective at swaying people than the political rhetoric of the Founders or Karl Marx? Who would YOU be more swayed by? Socrates or the Progressive Lady?

    Last time I checked, Americans weren't overthrowing the government in the name of Burger King or Walmart...

    If you believe that than I doubt you understand the nature of advertising. I very much doubt that it has not affected your prejudices one way or another.
    You act like the advertisers have some psychological stranglehold over me; I can assure you that they don't.

    Dude, seriously, I am not going to write a 50 page master's thesis in a forum. I believe this website is best utilized with short writings and I will continue to use it that way. I do not care if you do not think I am giving this subject matter the respect it deserves because I am giving it the respect I think it deserves and I am doing the writing.
    I never asked you to write a 50 page thesis, but if you're going to comment on matters of great complexity, don't expect me to sit here and nod my head like a moron just because you typed out a few sentences.

    I am not a socialist. I think the market economy is a very useful thing for society.
    Well, you obviously have some issue with private property. Feel free to elaborate on it.

    No I am not. I am saying that science trumps philosophy.
    Science doesn't trump philosophy when the topic IS philosophy.

    And despite not having access to MRIs and modern technology, Socrates and Buddha still had a profound understanding of human nature and personal fulfillment. I doubt very much that any modern person could match the depth of their wisdom and understanding simply because they had access to scientific literature.

  4. #24
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    You are absolutely one-percent wrong.



    And what are you basing this on, exactly? Your extensive knowledge of editing techniques during post-Revolutionary America? You've already demonstrated your ignorance of basic political history (propaganda is only 100 years old) as well as a limited understanding of the Founders' writings. Why should I take your assessments seriously when they're just ill-conceived and largely unsubstantiated?



    You really think modern marketing is more effective at swaying people than the political rhetoric of the Founders or Karl Marx? Who would YOU be more swayed by? Socrates or the Progressive Lady?

    Last time I checked, Americans weren't overthrowing the government in the name of Burger King or Walmart...



    You act like the advertisers have some psychological stranglehold over me; I can assure you that they don't.



    I never asked you to write a 50 page thesis, but if you're going to comment on matters of great complexity, don't expect me to sit here and nod my head like a moron just because you typed out a few sentences.



    Well, you obviously have some issue with private property. Feel free to elaborate on it.



    Science doesn't trump philosophy when the topic IS philosophy.

    And despite not having access to MRIs and modern technology, Socrates and Buddha still had a profound understanding of human nature and personal fulfillment. I doubt very much that any modern person could match the depth of their wisdom and understanding simply because they had access to scientific literature.
    Wish I could continue the conversation but it looks like I have some family obligations and I will probably forget most of this by the time I get back. So I will concede the point to you by nature of forfeit.

    I had to do it to LaMidRighter too, but I thought this stupid thing would start an hour ago, but anyway, have fun.


  5. #25
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Wish I could continue the conversation but it looks like I have some family obligations and I will probably forget most of this by the time I get back. So I will concede the point to you by nature of forfeit.

    I had to do it to LaMidRighter too, but I thought this stupid thing would start an hour ago, but anyway, have fun.

    Have a nice day!

  6. #26
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    The majority of the Constitution WAS written so as to be interpreted in a specific and easily defined manner, yet we still have intellectually dishonest liberals and progressives who think black is white and up is down; just look at their creative view of the Second Amendment, for starters.
    Ignoring the fact that there are plenty of ambiguous and unclear things in the constitution, it's funny how often conservatives hide behind that argument when it's against something they don't like, and forget all about it when THEY want to make an unconstitutional law. Seems awfully hypocritical don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    This country was FOUNDED BY THEM. They FOUGHT AND DIED so that you could freely malign them from the comfort of your private property. Their opinions are not more important, but they are certainly still relevant.
    You're welcome to your opinion of course. If you want to take the founder's opinions into account when interpreting the constitution, go right ahead, just don't expect everyone to do it. Personally I think their opinions are irrelevant, since they're dead. If they wanted an unambiguous document, they had their chance to write it. They didn't, so it's up to us to interpret it, not them.

    Honestly, I greatly respect them for that. I think leaving certain things ambiguous so that they could be interpreted as needed by future generations was a brilliant move on their parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    You're just a typical liberal ingrate.
    Yawn. Yet another poster, who, when they have no valid counter-arguments results to insults.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    That's precisely what you're saying. If you think we should totally disregard the views of our Founders when interpreting the document THEY WROTE then you're throwing that part of our history into the dustbin.
    Again, that's not what I said at all. Stop putting words in my mouth. You're welcome to take the founder's opinions (if you think you know what they were) into account when making your decisions about things, just don't expect the same of everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    What's creepy about maximizing individual liberty!? Is there something wrong with wanting to be left alone by intrusive government and liberal busy-bodies?

    How Orwellian of you...
    What's creepy is wanting to give more weight to the opinions of dead people than live ones. What's creepy is wanting our government to stagnate rather than grow and change with the times.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  7. #27
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    The Founders are irrelevant! They failed to foresee the advertising leviathan that has emerged and displaced their noble thoughts and profound commentaries. All tremble before the mighty Flo! Destroyer of the Founders and oppressor of humanity!

    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPhq_gC9pZs"]YouTube- Progressive Insurance Commercial - Flo Craves Tacos in "Back Up"[/nomedia]


    Egad, how will we ever contend with such a mighty force as thee!?

  8. #28
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

    What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?
    We need to expound upon the concept of individual liberty (specifically the inalienable right of property) to apply to all persons and to include the concept of individual sovereignty or self ownership.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 05-15-10 at 01:21 PM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    The legal documents that they wrote (i.e. the constitution, bill of rights, declaration of independence, etc.) provide a framework for our government, but beyond that their opinions/thoughts/etc. are meaningless to the world of today. Once they no longer held official government positions (or at the very least once they were dead), their opinions on how the constitution/etc. should be interpreted ceased to be relevant.
    lol so you think the intent of the law by those who wrote it is irrelevant?

  10. #30
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol so you think the intent of the law by those who wrote it is irrelevant?
    Yes. How many times to I have to say this?

    The only opinions that the founders had which are relevant to us today are those that they turned into laws.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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