View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #261
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    I disagree, I think Hamilton is clearly speaking of a geographic location. Note he used the word "spot" instead of "person."
    Obviously he was not. Here again is to the original text of the Constitution:

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    Perhaps you can how you think Hamilton was thinking of individuals instead of States?

  2. #262
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If we aren't going to judge them by modern standards, then we should also do away with the pretense of pretending to care what they would have thought about modern political issues.
    Because even though they were imperfect, they had some pretty intelligent stuff to say. Here's an idea, let's allow their ideas stand on their own. Overall, I'd say that they built a damn fine country.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  3. #263
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not to be rude cap but this entire thread has been filled with all sorts of hyperbole.
    The constant rehashing of slavery, like we haven't heard it before, is getting incredibly annoying.
    Slavery becomes rehashed because you continue to apologize for the past.
    You argued that some of the FF were some of the first abolitionists, which is true. But you ignore the fact that though there were abolitionists when they built the US they did not address the problem.

    Though these abolitionist Founding Fathers might have had an ideology that is ahead of the common dialect, they did nothing in forming the Government to confront these issues.

    Not once did I argue that you shouldn't following the Founding Fathers because they owned slaves, but you should also realize that they were products of their time and therefore their ideals are not monolithic.



    It's like asking you drug addicted, alcoholic, felon brother to manage your bank account while you're away.
    It doesn't flow logically.
    Might not be as bad as hiring your dead uncle as your shrink.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  4. #264
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Because even though they were imperfect, they had some pretty intelligent stuff to say.
    Sure, just like every other generation does. What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus
    Here's an idea, let's allow their ideas stand on their own. Overall, I'd say that they built a damn fine country.
    We have gotten to where we are by reinterpreting the Constitution to better match the reality of today...not by agonizing over what the Founding Fathers would have thought about modern political issues.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
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    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  5. #265
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    You appear to have a basic misunderstanding of the Constitution. It says what the government can do, not what it can't.
    You appear to have a basic misunderstanding of the constitution.

    Here are a few examples of what the government can not do.

    It can make no ex post facto laws.

    It can not grant any specific privileges and immunities.

    It prevents each branch of government from usurping another branch.

    There are plenty of other examples of what the government can not do.

    Would you like to hear more?

  6. #266
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Slavery becomes rehashed because you continue to apologize for the past.
    You argued that some of the FF were some of the first abolitionists, which is true. But you ignore the fact that though there were abolitionists when they built the US they did not address the problem.

    Though these abolitionist Founding Fathers might have had an ideology that is ahead of the common dialect, they did nothing in forming the Government to confront these issues.

    Not once did I argue that you shouldn't following the Founding Fathers because they owned slaves, but you should also realize that they were products of their time and therefore their ideals are not monolithic.
    I haven't apologized for the past, I'm have said multiple times that it was wrong for people to enslave other people.

    Some of the FF's tried to include anti slavery legal provision in The Constitution.
    Particularly, one that owned slaves.

    The core ideas of the enlightenment are not wrong because some people of that time practiced slavery.

    If we are going to throw out all ideas because someone was wrong about something in past, we're going to have get rid of a lot of stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Might not be as bad as hiring your dead uncle as your shrink.
    I'm trying to learn from the experiences of the past to have a better future.
    Thus far, most people have been wanting to repeat the failures of said past, with joyous glee at times.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #267
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

    What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?
    They weren't the founder's ideas. They were taken from the British 1215 Magna Carta, which was much more specific. Google it and read it for yourself.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

    What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?
    i always thought the founding fathers ideas was to kill as many native americans as they could, and enslave as many africans as possible.

  9. #269
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    They weren't the founder's ideas. They were taken from the British 1215 Magna Carta, which was much more specific. Google it and read it for yourself.

    ricksfolly
    And the magna carta was taken from other people's ideas.

    It is sort of like foreplay. One thing leads to another thing. That's life.

  10. #270
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    You appear to have a basic misunderstanding of the constitution.

    Here are a few examples of what the government can not do.

    It can make no ex post facto laws.

    It can not grant any specific privileges and immunities.

    It prevents each branch of government from usurping another branch.

    There are plenty of other examples of what the government can not do.

    Would you like to hear more?
    You're completely ignoring his main point. What he's saying is that aside from the prohibitions within the Constitution, anything that is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution as being a power/responsibility of the federal government is relegated to either the states or private individuals. Tenth Amendment.
    Last edited by Black_Zawisza; 05-17-10 at 03:47 PM.

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