View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #251
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Dag nabit, we're supposed to disagree.
    Why? There's a secret to debating with me. Be civil, intelligent, logical, and not extreme and we will almost always find some common ground. You and I may have some fundamental differences in some areas, but we nearly always either find agreement in some areas.

    Umm ummm Freud was a loon! Ha!
    In some respects, he was.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #252
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Why? There's a secret to debating with me. Be civil, intelligent, logical, and not extreme and we will almost always find some common ground. You and I may have some fundamental differences in some areas, but we nearly always either find agreement in some areas.
    Mental gymnastics, I need to keep my strongest muscle (yea, it's not really a muscle) in shape.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    In some respects, he was.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #253
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I continue to be amazed by the insistence on judging the Founders, and/or other historical figures, by modern standards.
    If we aren't going to judge them by modern standards, then we should also do away with the pretense of pretending to care what they would have thought about modern political issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    People are born into the society they are born in; they grow up with certain things as norms. It is the rare person who rises above that at all; to hammer them because they didn't rise quite far enough to suit our modern sensibilities is a bit ridiculous.

    Future generations may judge us as harshly, deciding that by their standards, we were a bunch of hateful barbarians.
    That's quite true, maybe they will. At any rate, hopefully 200 years from now people aren't lionizing Barack Obama, trying to interpret what he would have thought about using their new photon torpedo on hostile artificial intelligence.

    The absurdity of that should be obvious, and yet there are people on this thread who are doing exactly the same thing, about men who lived 200+ years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    The slavery compromise was forced on them by the slaveholding states as the only way to preserve the nation as a union; they still feared Britain enough to accept the need to keep things together.
    Who is "them"? John Adams was not the only Founding Father; all of those guys from slave states were Founding Fathers too. To say that the slave states forced the Founding Fathers to make compromises indicates that you are changing the definition of Founding Fathers to include only those individuals who you liked the best.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-17-10 at 06:06 AM.
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  4. #254
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    It ought to be pointed out that the Founding Fathers were traitors to the British crown. Had the Revolution been crushed (by no means a stretch of the imagination) and they been captured, they would have been put on trial, convicted of treason and sentenced to death.
    Yeah and if a frog had wings it would not bump it's ass when it landed.

  5. #255
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Yeah and if a frog had wings it would not bump it's ass when it landed.
    prove it...
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  6. #256
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    prove it...
    Could you spare a frog?

  7. #257
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Could you spare a frog?
    i actually just released a dozen or so frogs into the wild last week.
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  8. #258
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    I would agree with you that earmarks do not fit his criteria, and I believe most anyone you would talk to opposes them.

    Welfare, affirmative action, and public housing are all things that were available throughout the union. How do you logically contend that they are not. Has the federal government gone out and said, only chicago can apply for food stamps? No, anyone in the US can apply for food stamps.

    The only criteria I can see you going after is that these programs go to benefit a certain group of people within the united states. I don't see how this is inconsistant with the rest of the powers in the consitution. The federal government can build roads, so only people with cars benefit. The federal government can deliver mail, so only people who write letters will benefit. These things target a specific set of individuals, but their effects are hardely local. How is this different than if the federal government finances homes through the FHA, or provides a scholarship to a certain minority group, or provides cash assistance to families with children as long as the service is available in all 50 states?
    Roads and mail are both enumerated powers. General Welfare would mean that everyone gets food stamps, a monthly stipend and government housing, and that is clearly not the case.

  9. #259
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Show me the clause where Obamacare is outlawed. It should read something to the effect, "Obamacare is outlawed..." The Constitution does NOT include everything... the founders knew this, which is why it is still perfectly useful today.

    Oh, and make sure you include a link with your evidence.
    You appear to have a basic misunderstanding of the Constitution. It says what the government can do, not what it can't.

  10. #260
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Roads and mail are both enumerated powers. General Welfare would mean that everyone gets food stamps, a monthly stipend and government housing, and that is clearly not the case.
    "That the object to which an appropriation of money is to be made be General and not local; its operation extending in fact, or by possibility, throughout the Union, and not being confined to a particular spot."
    I disagree, I think Hamilton is clearly speaking of a geographic location. Note he used the word "spot" instead of "person."

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