View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #231
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    I continue to be amazed by the insistence on judging the Founders, and/or other historical figures, by modern standards.

    People are born into the society they are born in; they grow up with certain things as norms. It is the rare person who rises above that at all; to hammer them because they didn't rise quite far enough to suit our modern sensibilities is a bit ridiculous.

    Future generations may judge us as harshly, deciding that by their standards, we were a bunch of hateful barbarians.

    You have to judge historical figures within the context of the society they lived in. IMO when you do so, the Founders come out as being well ahead of their times... just not quite AS far ahead of their times as some might wish, who wish to use that against them.

    The slavery compromise was forced on them by the slaveholding states as the only way to preserve the nation as a union; they still feared Britain enough to accept the need to keep things together. Anyone recall the War of 1812? Occurred to anyone that they might have put unity against the ongoing threat of Brit/European attempts at reconquest as a high enough priority that they let the slavery issue "ride for the time being"?

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  2. #232
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    The solid foundation built for this country by the founders should not be weakened by weak minds.

    They put into the Constitution important checks and balances, but they also left it so that changes could be made.

    We should not weaken the foundation, instead it should be strengthened by our brightest minds, not politicians.
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  3. #233
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The solid foundation built for this country by the founders should not be weakened by weak minds.

    They put into the Constitution important checks and balances, but they also left it so that changes could be made.

    We should not weaken the foundation, instead it should be strengthened by our brightest minds, not politicians.
    You mean like me?

  4. #234
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Oh really? Where's the clause for Obamacare?
    Show me the clause where Obamacare is outlawed. It should read something to the effect, "Obamacare is outlawed..." The Constitution does NOT include everything... the founders knew this, which is why it is still perfectly useful today.

    Oh, and make sure you include a link with your evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #235
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I continue to be amazed by the insistence on judging the Founders, and/or other historical figures, by modern standards.

    People are born into the society they are born in; they grow up with certain things as norms. It is the rare person who rises above that at all; to hammer them because they didn't rise quite far enough to suit our modern sensibilities is a bit ridiculous.

    Future generations may judge us as harshly, deciding that by their standards, we were a bunch of hateful barbarians.

    You have to judge historical figures within the context of the society they lived in. IMO when you do so, the Founders come out as being well ahead of their times... just not quite AS far ahead of their times as some might wish, who wish to use that against them.

    The slavery compromise was forced on them by the slaveholding states as the only way to preserve the nation as a union; they still feared Britain enough to accept the need to keep things together. Anyone recall the War of 1812? Occurred to anyone that they might have put unity against the ongoing threat of Brit/European attempts at reconquest as a high enough priority that they let the slavery issue "ride for the time being"?
    No, you got it all wrong.

    We are modern, which translates to perfection.
    We don't separate people based on arbitrary means like they did, except when it comes to gender, race, income, nationality.

    We are supreme in our actions, except when we want private gain and public loss.

    No we are perfect.
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  6. #236
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    I don't see how you logically contend that. Again here's what Hamilton wrote:

    "That the object to which an appropriation of money is to be made be General and not local; its operation extending in fact, or by possibility, throughout the Union, and not being confined to a particular spot."

    How do welfare, public housing, affirmative action, and any "earmark" program meet Hamilton's restriction?
    I would agree with you that earmarks do not fit his criteria, and I believe most anyone you would talk to opposes them.

    Welfare, affirmative action, and public housing are all things that were available throughout the union. How do you logically contend that they are not. Has the federal government gone out and said, only chicago can apply for food stamps? No, anyone in the US can apply for food stamps.

    The only criteria I can see you going after is that these programs go to benefit a certain group of people within the united states. I don't see how this is inconsistant with the rest of the powers in the consitution. The federal government can build roads, so only people with cars benefit. The federal government can deliver mail, so only people who write letters will benefit. These things target a specific set of individuals, but their effects are hardely local. How is this different than if the federal government finances homes through the FHA, or provides a scholarship to a certain minority group, or provides cash assistance to families with children as long as the service is available in all 50 states?
    Last edited by drz-400; 05-17-10 at 02:44 AM.

  7. #237
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No, you got it all wrong.

    We are modern, which translates to perfection.
    We don't separate people based on arbitrary means like they did, except when it comes to gender, race, income, nationality.

    We are supreme in our actions, except when we want private gain and public loss.

    No we are perfect.
    You are over-reacting. No one is saying that there is no credence in what the founders did nor that what they did wasn't great and monumental... at least I'm not. However, one MUST recognize that they were a product of their time and that in current times there are things that they could not have conceived of... yet the Constitution can still apply to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #238
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    I was told that to compare my "sacrifices"- or those of anyone else alive today- to the "sacrifices" of the Founding Fathers was "pathetic".
    There is no greater sacrifice one can make for one's country than to give one's life for it- or one's child's life. Or even to allow oneself or one's child to be put at risk, for the noble cause of freedom.

    What the hell did the Founding Fathers ever sacrifice beside which such sacrifices as people make today look "pathetic"?
    What did they sacrifice? A slave? Their wooden teeth? Their stupid-looking grandma wigs?
    I can't think of a single sacrifice they ever made, frankly. They seemed to deny themselves little.
    It ought to be pointed out that the Founding Fathers were traitors to the British crown. Had the Revolution been crushed (by no means a stretch of the imagination) and they been captured, they would have been put on trial, convicted of treason and sentenced to death.
    Last edited by Black_Zawisza; 05-17-10 at 02:35 AM.

  9. #239
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think this is the most pertinent part.
    We should be under a rule of strictly interpreted law.

    Not the rule of man whose wants and whims change with the wind.

    The Constitution has been a great source of the rule of law for a long time.
    It can be changed as needed through the amendment process.

    No living interpretations needed.
    This is the assessment that I completely disagree with. We should NOT be under a rule of strictly interpreted law... originalist position, so to speak. It makes the Constitution irrelevant to today's world. Interpretation is absolutely necessary because all information needed to decide specific situations is there, or at least mostly there. I would also submit that all voting rights amendments were unnecessary. Since the Constitution, as far as I know, does not specify who can or cannot vote, all that need to happen was a black, or a women try to vote, be denied, and for SCOTUS to rule on it. Since there is no stated restriction, SCOTUS could have easily interpreted that as meaning that there is no reason to restrict these people from voting.
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    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #240
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are over-reacting. No one is saying that there is no credence in what the founders did nor that what they did wasn't great and monumental... at least I'm not. However, one MUST recognize that they were a product of their time and that in current times there are things that they could not have conceived of... yet the Constitution can still apply to them.
    Not to be rude cap but this entire thread has been filled with all sorts of hyperbole.
    The constant rehashing of slavery, like we haven't heard it before, is getting incredibly annoying.

    The Constitution purposefully limited what the Federal government could do.
    It was pretty blatant within the whole writing of the document and now people are trying to feed me this nonsense that it doesn't limit it.

    Or they are telling me that the we should change it to allow them to do more, which is pretty disturbing.
    Consider all the corruption, cronyism, purposeful manipulation, scandals, the crazy amounts of debt.

    It's like asking you drug addicted, alcoholic, felon brother to manage your bank account while you're away.
    It doesn't flow logically.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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