View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #221
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    The legal documents that they wrote (i.e. the constitution, bill of rights, declaration of independence, etc.) provide a framework for our government, but beyond that their opinions/thoughts/etc. are meaningless to the world of today. Once they no longer held official government positions (or at the very least once they were dead), their opinions on how the constitution/etc. should be interpreted ceased to be relevant.
    you feel the same way about the rotting and perhaps evaporated twits who foisted the New Deal, Great Society and other unconstitutional garbage on us that continues to infect the very fabric of our society today?



  2. #222
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you feel the same way about the rotting and perhaps evaporated twits who foisted the New Deal, Great Society and other unconstitutional garbage on us that continues to infect the very fabric of our society today?
    "Gee, Ma, why has political debate in America deteriorated so much lately?"

  3. #223
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    "Gee, Ma, why has political debate in America deteriorated so much lately?"
    That was pretty funny.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #224
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    It was funny, but TD's comments are spot-on.

  5. #225
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    What is so important that the government needs to be involved in so many things?
    Things that have been dealt with privately for a long time.

    I think you, like others, are making excuses for them.
    Private property did not exist until the Enlightened thinkers made it up.
    "Fruits of the labor" had no meaning in the times predating Adam Smith.


    You give modern society way to much credit, more than I'm giving the FF's.
    Going to argue that slavery wasn't part of the Founding Father's world? And continued even when they had the ability to build a Government from scratch?

    A majority of people think that limited resources can be rationed efficiently by government.
    They aren't that much different.
    Can't wait to see how you suppose limited resources should be rationed... and by whom



    Now people think I should be forced to accept their version of right, even when facts contradict it.
    They are willing to use force to make me comply.
    What happened to those who voice their opinions against the Founding Fathers? Ask those from Shay's Rebelling and the Whiskey Rebellion.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  6. #226
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    It was funny, but TD's comments are spot-on.
    Libs bash the founders but break out the kneepads for FDR and LBJ



  7. #227
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    "Gee, Ma, why has political debate in America deteriorated so much lately?"
    Probably because the politicians stink to high heaven



  8. #228
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Private property did not exist until the Enlightened thinkers made it up.
    "Fruits of the labor" had no meaning in the times predating Adam Smith.
    Private property has existed since the dawn of mankind and the creation of tools.
    It may not have been formally called private property but it sure existed as such.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Going to argue that slavery wasn't part of the Founding Father's world? And continued even when they had the ability to build a Government from scratch?
    I didn't say that but you're arguing that because they owned slaves that they couldn't be better thinkers than modern people.

    There is no proof to suggest that is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Can't wait to see how you suppose limited resources should be rationed... and by whom
    The market has no equal in rationing.
    Those with the greatest need get and those that don't get less or none.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    What happened to those who voice their opinions against the Founding Fathers? Ask those from Shay's Rebelling and the Whiskey Rebellion.
    They weren't perfect but those situations caused the changes in the right direction.

    Your thinking is totally alien to me.
    I have honestly never understood it when put into proper context.

    We have a clear, recorded history of consistent government mismanagement, corruption, abuse of power and cronyism.
    It isn't an occasional occurrence, it happens daily.

    Why in the world would you support giving them more power over your life and the lives of others?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #229
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Libs bash the founders but break out the kneepads for FDR and LBJ
    And Clinton, Obama....

  10. #230
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Private property has existed since the dawn of mankind and the creation of tools.
    It may not have been formally called private property but it sure existed as such.
    That is not true. It only existed when there became a class capable of being, in essence, of both worlds. The middle-class could see the serfs, and the lords, and could then idealize that what the producer should make should be that of the producers.
    It was all the middle-classes desire to take power from nobility some knowingly and some with the real desire to do good for the most.

    We look back and scoff at the ideas that predated the Enlightenment as if they were so absurd that we could barely believe they were even humans. The idea of Divine Right and Noble Right for the producing class and for the royal class was without doubt.
    The French nobility could "prove" that they were of a different caliber human than the 3rd estate. They would own documents and "facts" that showed how related they were to the Franks. Whereas, the serfs were Gauls... The conquerors and the conquered.



    I didn't say that but you're arguing that because they owned slaves that they couldn't be better thinkers than modern people.
    I wouldn't look toward a slave owner for moral justice.



    [quote
    The market has no equal in rationing.
    Those with the greatest need get and those that don't get less or none.[/quote]

    The market is, once again, another construction of the Enlightenment. The underlying human nature analyzed is greed, and the Market is to apologize greed.

    At best Adam Smith's ideal capitalist society was a representation of a system long sense dead.




    Your thinking is totally alien to me.
    I have honestly never understood it when put into proper context.

    We have a clear, recorded history of consistent government mismanagement, corruption, abuse of power and cronyism.
    It isn't an occasional occurrence, it happens daily.
    We sure do.

    Why in the world would you support giving them more power over your life and the lives of others?
    I've never said that.
    You're getting my belief about 41 individuals on historical record.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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