View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #201
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    But my point is that they created the Constitution and the ability to take it where WE wanted to take it. That was their intent. I do not mean their intent on details, only structure.
    It's interesting. This comment echoes what I've been saying. The Constitution's biggest value is it's usability across generations. It provides a structure in which to do that. I don't think the Amendment process is too difficult at all, simply because most issues that come up, their answers can be easily extrapolated from the Constitution itself. I like the second part of your first sentence a lot: "the ability to take it where WE wanted to take it."
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  2. #202
    Meh...
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    The fact is that they were in a position to build a Government system different than any in history.

    And at the end of the day the women were still without a vote, and the blacks were still in shackles.

    I've never had the opportunity to make my own form of government.
    This is exactly my point. Even the French's Revolution avoided the issue of female equality and colonial slavery. Their Declaration of the Rights of Man refrained from addressing it. I think we can all agree that these basic documents left for future interpretations in order to define the basic ideals. But given that both sides of the ocean were similar in what "equality" meant, let's not pretend that what we do today equates to what they intended.

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  3. #203
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I don't look to poison the well. I just don't give 18th century men credit for what they had no vision for. How many of them would vote for Barrack Obama in their era (or this one?) How many of them would send American troops across the ocean to deal with Europan affairs? Their intentions have been re-interpreted and re-interpreted. Sooner or later, gay marriage will be what they intended too.
    To your first question, I wouldn't vote for Barack but of course that isn't based on race.
    They probably wouldn't because of racial reasons.
    As we know now, Black people are humans like white people.
    They were definitely wrong in their interpretation of what constitutes "men."

    I wouldn't agree to help Europe for the most part either though.
    With an exception to WW2, but that is most for defensive purposes.

    Marriage isn't a Federal issue and shouldn't be.
    It's a trite little thing, solely intended to polarize people to their respective parties.


    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Except blacks who were provided much of the income for the nation and even Europeans.
    Addressed this above.


    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You brought up their 18th century status. Would it really have been their intent or not?
    It doesn't matter, marriage isn't and wasn't a federal issue.

    Now to keep things in perspective.

    The ideas of the enlightenment boiled down to limited state governance with maximum self governance.
    No one as of yet has proven why these things are wrong.

    We fixed the gender and racial issues already, they are nothing but a irrelevant distraction to the discussion now.
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  4. #204
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    The fact is that they were in a position to build a Government system different than any in history.

    And at the end of the day the women were still without a vote, and the blacks were still in shackles
    Yep you're absolutely right.
    They weren't the holiest of holy.
    They were fallible just like you and I.

    That still does not take away from the basic idea of, limited state governance with maximum self governance.
    Now applied equally to all people of all races and genders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I've never had the opportunity to make my own form of government.
    I would live in abject fear of what moronic ideas that would come from a new form of government.
    (not saying you're moronic)

    The ideas of what people now consider a right is completely illogical and unreasonable.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 05-16-10 at 08:58 PM.
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  5. #205
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, but we are talking about founding fathers. Not a black and white document that gets ammended generation to generation.
    Amend away, brother, but that's not what Congress has been doing since FDR. The Amendment process is onerous and takes a super majority of States. What Congress has been doing is getting a 50 + 1 majority, and the SCOTUS has been letting them get away with it. And because of FDR, who packed the court with progressives.

  6. #206
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Wrong. There are two possibilities. Either it was the intent of the founders for the Constitution to be used for perpetuity, which means that interpretation would be necessary based on societal and technological changes, or it was their intent that the Constitution would be thrown out and rewritten after a time, when it was obvious that because of societal and technological changes, many parts of it no longer applied. I believe the former. If you believe neither, you are diminishing the intelligence of the founders, by claiming that they were so short sighted that they would have actually believe that what was written could literally apply to life 200 years later. I think they were a whole lot smarter than that.
    You neglect the third option: the Amendment process. See my response to MSgt.

  7. #207
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    It's interesting. This comment echoes what I've been saying. The Constitution's biggest value is it's usability across generations. It provides a structure in which to do that. I don't think the Amendment process is too difficult at all, simply because most issues that come up, their answers can be easily extrapolated from the Constitution itself. I like the second part of your first sentence a lot: "the ability to take it where WE wanted to take it."
    I just want to point out the changes we have made to the Constitution since it was ratified.

    Of course, we have the 10 Amendments of the Bill of Rights.
    Leaving 17 Amendments.
    Of those...

    13th Amendment freed the slaves.
    15th Amendment gives suffrage to the slaves.
    16th Amendment allows for a Federal Income Tax
    18th Amendment Prohibition of alcohol
    19th Amendment Womens suffrage
    21st Amendment overturns Prohibition
    24th Amendment abolishes poll taxes preventing voting
    26th Amendment 18 is voting age

    13th, 15th and 19th frees the slaves, expands the vote to all races and both genders. That is pretty potent stuff these amendments.

    Yet, most of the Constitution has remained unmodified. So the FF intent as it applies to those parts of the constitution unchanged is relevant.

  8. #208
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I just want to point out the changes we have made to the Constitution since it was ratified.

    Of course, we have the 10 Amendments of the Bill of Rights.
    Leaving 17 Amendments.
    Of those...

    13th Amendment freed the slaves.
    15th Amendment gives suffrage to the slaves.
    16th Amendment allows for a Federal Income Tax
    18th Amendment Prohibition of alcohol
    19th Amendment Womens suffrage
    21st Amendment overturns Prohibition
    24th Amendment abolishes poll taxes preventing voting
    26th Amendment 18 is voting age

    13th, 15th and 19th frees the slaves, expands the vote to all races and both genders. That is pretty potent stuff these amendments.

    Yet, most of the Constitution has remained unmodified. So the FF intent as it applies to those parts of the constitution unchanged is relevant.
    I think this is the most pertinent part.
    We should be under a rule of strictly interpreted law.

    Not the rule of man whose wants and whims change with the wind.

    The Constitution has been a great source of the rule of law for a long time.
    It can be changed as needed through the amendment process.

    No living interpretations needed.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #209
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Amend away, brother, but that's not what Congress has been doing since FDR. The Amendment process is onerous and takes a super majority of States. What Congress has been doing is getting a 50 + 1 majority, and the SCOTUS has been letting them get away with it. And because of FDR, who packed the court with progressives.
    And the republicans packed it with six Catholics. That scares me.

  10. #210
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    And the republicans packed it with six Catholics. That scares me.
    You're probably scared of a lot of things.

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