View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #191
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It's called chronological snobbery and guilt by association.

    You insinuated that because they owned slaves (or that they were "white" centered) their ideas were invalid.
    Um...no. What I stated was that they had different ideas and that they were products of their era. It was future generations that decided that their words meant something else. And so on and so on until people far removed find themselves dictating to the rest about what they intended.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Marriage is not apart of The Constitution, it has no bearing on this discussion.
    Oh...but it is if all men are created equal and have the same basic rights. Did they intend for them to be in the military? Did they intend for them to be outcasts from society? Or is this just one more example of how we re-interpret as we go in regards to what our founding fathers intended?

    These are guys who created a document in which we have been basing things off of ever since. What we do has nothing to do with some deep down unexpressed feelings of a few select 18th century men. Oh...but we know what they intended as the cotton got picked.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-16-10 at 07:45 PM.

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  2. #192
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Wrong. The Constitution is like any other contract. Just because you think that you're hip doesn't give you the right to interpret it any way other than intended by its signers.
    Wrong. There are two possibilities. Either it was the intent of the founders for the Constitution to be used for perpetuity, which means that interpretation would be necessary based on societal and technological changes, or it was their intent that the Constitution would be thrown out and rewritten after a time, when it was obvious that because of societal and technological changes, many parts of it no longer applied. I believe the former. If you believe neither, you are diminishing the intelligence of the founders, by claiming that they were so short sighted that they would have actually believe that what was written could literally apply to life 200 years later. I think they were a whole lot smarter than that.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Um...no. What I stated was that they had different ideas and that they were products of their era. It was future generations that decided that their words meant something else. And so on and so on until people far removed find themselves dictating to the rest about what they intended.
    Sure they had different ideas, which they came to a compromise on.

    Why do you, and others like yourself, intentionally poison the well by constantly bringing up that they owned slaves?

    It's been established that this was the case, it is not new information.
    It has also been established that The Constitution was an ideal.
    Something that was hoped to be lived up to by future generations.


    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh...but it is if all men are created equal and have the same basic rights. Did they intend for them to be in the military? Did they intend for them to be outcasts from society? Or is this just one more example of how we re-interpret as we go in regards to what our founding fathers intended?
    It was an ideal, it was clear in the whole of the founding papers that they wanted men to be free from being constantly lorded over.

    Sexual relations and marriage was not apart of The Constitution, it doesn't matter.
    It doesn't say "Men (except gays) serve the militia," it just says men.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Some say we still benefit from it today.

    Does that make all of your, mine, his, her, their arguments and ideas invalid?
    They owned slaves. I don't.

    Their ideas did not result in emancipation, nor did it result in women's suffrage.

    Their ideas were not to provide the common person with an ability to fully affect their government, as electoral colleges became the answer to any direct democratic process.

    I don't give a **** whether they thought slavery was wrong or not. They owned slaves. They believed that people were inferior because of their education level, or because of their status in society, or because of the color of their skin or whether or not they had a penis.

    It's beautiful that some of their beliefs were that slavery was bad, but they walked through their streets and were willfully able to raise an army against the British, but not against oppression.

    They were business savvy. Getting the British tariffs and taxes rid from the colonies was a savvy move. Freeing the slaves wasn't.
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  5. #195
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphetamine View Post
    They were a product of their times, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    That's all I've stated. We aren't talking about a group of Gandhis or Jesus'. Every social topic seems to come with an argument of what our founding fathers intended. It's BS. They produced a base document, but acknowledged that certain social standards were to be understood. This is why they didn't free their slaves or seek to get involved with European affairs of conflict after 1776. Nothing in the document states that we are to stay clear of European affairs, yet they were clear about France's issues on the contininent.

    World War I and World War II was not what they intended. An American Civil War that tore the country in two (thereby forcing unity) was not what they intended. A raised status of non-whites was not what they intended (or is Obama what they wanted to see in their hearts of hearts?)

    Future generations did this because we chose to re-interpret their words to suit our definitions. I can't stand when people use the founding fathers and their "intentions" to legitimize our present day decisions. It's retarded.

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  6. #196
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But you can't argue this. They are products of their own era. We took the Constitution where we decided to take it. Future generations will do the same. None of it has anything to do with what our founding fathers may have intended for their new country.
    But my point is that they created the Constitution and the ability to take it where WE wanted to take it. That was their intent. I do not mean their intent on details, only structure.

  7. #197
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    They owned slaves. I don't.

    Their ideas did not result in emancipation, nor did it result in women's suffrage.

    Their ideas were not to provide the common person with an ability to fully affect their government, as electoral colleges became the answer to any direct democratic process.

    I don't give a **** whether they thought slavery was wrong or not. They owned slaves. They believed that people were inferior because of their education level, or because of their status in society, or because of the color of their skin or whether or not they had a penis.

    It's beautiful that some of their beliefs were that slavery was bad, but they walked through their streets and were willfully able to raise an army against the British, but not against oppression.

    They were business savvy. Getting the British tariffs and taxes rid from the colonies was a savvy move. Freeing the slaves wasn't.
    Now you're moving the goal posts.

    You said they benefited, which can be argued that you also benefit from the previous institution of slavery.
    Why should I listen to anything you say, you are a beneficiary of slavery?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  8. #198
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why do you, and others like yourself, intentionally poison the well by constantly bringing up that they owned slaves?
    I don't look to poison the well. I just don't give 18th century men credit for what they had no vision for. How many of them would vote for Barrack Obama in their era (or this one?) How many of them would send American troops across the ocean to deal with Europan affairs? Their intentions have been re-interpreted and re-interpreted. Sooner or later, gay marriage will be what they intended too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It was an ideal, it was clear in the whole of the founding papers that they wanted men to be free from being constantly lorded over.
    Except blacks who were provided much of the income for the nation and even Europeans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Sexual relations and marriage was not apart of The Constitution, it doesn't matter.
    It doesn't say "Men (except gays) serve the militia," it just says men.
    You brought up their 18th century status. Would it really have been their intent or not?

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  9. #199
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Now you're moving the goal posts.

    You said they benefited, which can be argued that you also benefit from the previous institution of slavery.
    Why should I listen to anything you say, you are a beneficiary of slavery?
    The fact is that they were in a position to build a Government system different than any in history.

    And at the end of the day the women were still without a vote, and the blacks were still in shackles.

    I've never had the opportunity to make my own form of government.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  10. #200
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    But my point is that they created the Constitution and the ability to take it where WE wanted to take it. That was their intent. I do not mean their intent on details, only structure.
    Well, that I believe.

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