View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #181
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    They certainly can be, however, how does that work when many of the people who pushed the ideas of the enlightenment, didn't believe in slavery?
    They all benefitted from it.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  2. #182
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Well, I am sure it has happened that congress has acted in a way that was not in the spirit of the constitution. However, I would contend that most of what the US federal government does is still in the spirit of the Hamiltonian view of the constitution, that its actions must be in the general interest of the entire nation.
    I don't see how you logically contend that. Again here's what Hamilton wrote:

    "That the object to which an appropriation of money is to be made be General and not local; its operation extending in fact, or by possibility, throughout the Union, and not being confined to a particular spot."

    How do welfare, public housing, affirmative action, and any "earmark" program meet Hamilton's restriction?

  3. #183
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Applying 18th century personal moral standards to the 21st century and then using that as a base that tries to discredit the entirety, of the ideas, of the enlightenment.

    Completely illogical.
    But attributing 21st century standards to 18th century morals of thought is? You got it backwards. Our founding fathers were a product of their era. We are a product of ours. What we do today has nothing to do with what they intended. We merely re-interpret as we go. Somehow the moral mind of the 18th century is supposed to exclude the extreme few who signed a base document.

    Next you'll be applying gay marriage to what the founding fathers intended.

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  4. #184
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Who's enlightenment? Theirs or future generations? What they wrote was a base for which others created from.
    Indeed. They created the base.


    Who stated otherwise? But let's not argue that our opinions and present day behaviors are exactly what our founding fathers intended. Aside from the idea of enlightenment and their document, they went home to slaves immediately after they signed it. You tell me what their vision was. It was up to future generations to decide that a Civil War was needed to include blacks. It took future generations to decide to march for Civil Rights. Today, we are more involved with international affairs than ever. Are we really what they intended or are we products of our own decisions while using the illusion of their perfect vision for legitimacy?

    They played their parts in the experiment. But it was only a part.
    Some here have claimed we shouldn't honor what they created, and what subsequent generations amended.

    They deferred with a compromise on the issue of slavery and came up with each black being 3/5 of a person. Not enlightened from our perspective but from theirs the best they could do in the process of creating a union. It did take a Civil War to resolve and not all of the consequences were positive (federal government is not weak - too strong).

    I would argue we are what they intended although we have taken steps they would not have liked. But we have been able to take the Constitution where it needed to go.

    I am saying honor the Constitution. And give the FF due credit for creating it.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 05-16-10 at 07:19 PM.

  5. #185
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    They all benefitted from it.
    Some say we still benefit from it today.

    Does that make all of your, mine, his, her, their arguments and ideas invalid?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  6. #186
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But attributing 21st century standards to 18th century morals of thought is? You got it backwards. Our founding fathers were a product of their era. We are a product of ours. What we do today has nothing to do with what they intended. We merely re-interpret as we go. Somehow the moral mind of the 18th century is supposed to exclude the extreme few who signed a base document.
    Wrong. The Constitution is like any other contract. Just because you think that you're hip doesn't give you the right to interpret it any way other than intended by its signers.

  7. #187
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But attributing 21st century standards to 18th century morals of thought is? You got it backwards. Our founding fathers were a product of their era. We are a product of ours. What we do today has nothing to do with what they intended. We merely re-interpret as we go. Somehow the moral mind of the 18th century is supposed to exclude the extreme few who signed a base document.
    It's called chronological snobbery and guilt by association.

    You insinuated that because they owned slaves (or that they were "white" centered) their ideas were invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Next you'll be applying gay marriage to what the founding fathers intended.
    Marriage is not apart of The Constitution, it has no bearing on this discussion.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 05-16-10 at 07:24 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  8. #188
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Our founding fathers idea of enlightenment was very white centered. We are not what our forefathers intended. We are what we intend. It amazes me how both sides of the argument seem to insist that the founding fathers would be on their side.
    They were a product of their times, and there is nothing wrong with that. All we can ever do is move forward. The fact that they were not as modernized as us in the 18th century does not make them undeserving of credit. Change is gradual. It is unrealistic to expect a leap from the laws enforced at the time of the founding fathers to a society which is completely unbiased and equal to all citizens. I do not value the hypothetical approval of the founding fathers, that is irrelevant. I do value their contributions, though, and that is something that cannot be taken away even as we move forward and away from the legislature they created.

  9. #189
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I would argue we are what they intended although we have taken steps they would not have liked. But we have been able to take the Constitution where it needed to go.
    But you can't argue this. They are products of their own era. We took the Constitution where we decided to take it. Future generations will do the same. None of it has anything to do with what our founding fathers may have intended for their new country.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I am saying honor the Constitution. And give the FF due credit for creating it.
    I agree with this and only this. I do not argue their intent as if I can re-create my illusions of what they believed in from generation to generation.

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  10. #190
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Wrong. The Constitution is like any other contract. Just because you think that you're hip doesn't give you the right to interpret it any way other than intended by its signers.
    Oh, but we are talking about founding fathers. Not a black and white document that gets ammended generation to generation.

    Did the signers intend for gay marriage?

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