View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #171
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Doubt it. Just not mired in an illusion of offering credit to dead men who had different ideas.
    Yea they had different ideas but came to a equitable compromise that benefited everyone present today.
    So some credit is due.

    Are they some super human gods, no.
    Were they more important than what you're letting on, yea.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Our fonding fathers idea of enlightenment was very white centered. We are not what our forefathers intended. We are what we intend. It amazes me how both sides of the argument seem to insist that the founding fathers would be on their side.
    I'm not claiming which side they will be on but the ideas of the enlightenment can be universally applied anywhere.

    White centered, geesh.

    You're certainly a master of hyperbole.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #172
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    White centered, geesh.
    Anglophile. Xenophobic. Racist.
    The idea is still correct, whether or not he uses big words to express it.

  3. #173
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Are they some super human gods, no.
    Were they more important than what you're letting on, yea.
    I guess "universal" health care is eacvtly what the founding fathers intended. I guess regulating industry is exactly what our founding fathers intended. I guess foriegn wars is exactly what our founding fathers intended.

    Perhaps you place too much emphasis on what was intended when you should be recognizing that their's was a different era and what we do is what we intend.

    Thanks for the Declaration of Independance, but it took generations later to decide what certain words meant. I doubt any of them had the vision to see what future generations would interpret as defining America's prosperity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post

    I'm not claiming which side they will be on but the ideas of the enlightenment can be universally applied anywhere.
    And by both sides of the argument. Leave the founding fathers alone and own your own decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You're certainly a master of hyperbole.
    I'm a writer.

    MSgt
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  4. #174
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Anglophile. Xenophobic. Racist.
    The idea is still correct, whether or not he uses big words to express it.
    Applying 18th century personal moral standards to the 21st century and then using that as a base that tries to discredit the entirety, of the ideas, of the enlightenment.

    Completely illogical.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #175
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Doubt it. Just not mired in an illusion of thinking my opinions are exactly what was intended by long dead men who had different ideas.

    Our founding fathers idea of enlightenment was very white centered. We are not what our forefathers intended. We are what we intend. It amazes me how both sides of the argument seem to insist that the founding fathers would be on their side.

    You're just being ridiculous.
    Modern constitutionalists and the cult followers of the founding fathers will play the argument that though most had slaves, though most considered women to be second class, their ideas of freedom meant for all humans and that they were past the curb.

    It is hard to imagine how Thomas Jefferson would fair were he born in 1889. Without these founding fathers establishing our Republic would we have an enlightenment based system of Government? Had we overthrown our colonial overlords at the end of WWI instead of 1700's what would our system of government be?
    Canada didn't receive full autonomy until 1982.
    Australia not until 1986.

    Neither countries are totally different than the United States in regards to freedom and liberty.

    The fall of the British Empire was inevitable. No empire stays an empire.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  6. #176
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Yet they managed to craft a Constitution with Amendments that has for the most part stood the test of time. Extending the vote to blacks and women may very well have been on some of their minds as a future amendment. That's enlightenment.
    Who's enlightenment? Theirs or future generations? What they wrote was a base for which others created from.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The Constitution is something for us to honor.
    Who stated otherwise? But let's not argue that our opinions and present day behaviors are exactly what our founding fathers intended. Aside from the idea of enlightenment and their document, they went home to slaves immediately after they signed it. You tell me what their vision was. It was up to future generations to decide that a Civil War was needed to include blacks. It took future generations to decide to march for Civil Rights. Today, we are more involved with international affairs than ever. Are we really what they intended or are we products of our own decisions while using the illusion of their perfect vision for legitimacy?

    They played their parts in the experiment. But it was only a part.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-16-10 at 07:12 PM.

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  7. #177
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Applying 18th century personal moral standards to the 21st century and then using that as a base that tries to discredit the entirety, of the ideas, of the enlightenment.

    Completely illogical.

    You don't believe that personal moral standards and political philosophy are intertwined?
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  8. #178
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I guess "universal" health care is eacvtly what the founding fathers intended. I guess regulating industry is exactly what our founding fathers intended. I guess foriegn wars is exactly what our founding fathers intended.

    Perhaps you place too much emphasis on what was intended when you should be recognizing that their's was a different era and what we do is what we intend.

    Thanks for the Declaration of Independance, but it took generations later to decide what certain words meant. I doubt any of them had the vision to see what future generations would interpret as defining America's prosperity.
    It was an ideal, that the people of the time hoped we could live up to eventually.
    Yea I'm not going to debate you on the other issues as you're mischaracterizing (whether purposefully or ignorantly) what it means in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And by both sides of the argument. Leave the founding fathers alone and own your own decisions.
    They were the first people to codify the ideals of the enlightenment into law.
    It's a pretty big deal.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #179
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    You don't believe that personal moral standards and political philosophy are intertwined?
    They certainly can be, however, how does that work when many of the people who pushed the ideas of the enlightenment, didn't believe in slavery?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #180
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    And the amendment process is how the constitution is changed, which is why it is an evolving document.

    My point is that the Amendment process should be used instead of the 50% plus 1 majority that has been used since FDR to usurp the Constitution.

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