View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #121
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    I've never understood this ancestor-worship of our Founding Fathers (and that's exactly what it is).

    Our Founding Fathers owned slaves, disenfranchised women, embargoed the entire world, went to war for silly reasons, committed genocide against Native Americans, and had temper tantrums at mild tax increases. For many of them, even their support for representative democracy or checks and balances was wavering at best.

    The Constitution was basically a compromise that was cobbled together from the various ideas that were floating around at one particular moment in time 221 years ago. Anyone who think it's perfect or even close to perfect is deluding themselves.

    Some of their ideas can be built upon. Some of their ideas were just ridiculous and have no place in the United States of 2010, which (if you haven't noticed) has changed a bit since 1789.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-16-10 at 01:14 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I've never understood this ancestor-worship of our Founding Fathers (and that's exactly what it is).

    Our Founding Fathers owned slaves, disenfranchised women, embargoed the entire world, went to war for silly reasons, committed genocide against Native Americans, and had temper tantrums at mild tax increases. For many of them, even their support for representative democracy or checks and balances was wavering at best.
    It's not ancestor worship, it reveling in the presence of good ideas.

    What part of not retaining power only for the elite members of society is bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Constitution was basically a compromise that was cobbled together from the various ideas that were floating around at one particular moment in time 221 years ago. Anyone who think it's perfect or even close to perfect is deluding themselves.

    Some of their ideas can be built upon. Some of their ideas were just ridiculous and have no place in the United States of 2010, which (if you haven't noticed) has changed a bit since 1789.
    Yea, technology has changed but humans have not.
    You may want people to evolve, you can't make them though.

    Of course none of what said has been a good enough example of why we should limit self governance.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 05-16-10 at 01:36 AM.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Yea, technology has changed but humans have not.
    Yes, they have.

    You may want people to evolve, you can't make them though.
    I don't have to "make them"; they already did.
    In the FFs' time, I wouldn't have even been considered human (although I would've been considered human enough to own other humans that were considered even less human than myself).

    People have evolved a lot. And we're not done yet.

  4. #124
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Yes, they have.

    I don't have to "make them"; they already did.
    In the FFs' time, I wouldn't have even been considered human (although I would've been considered human enough to own other humans that were considered even less human than myself).

    People have evolved a lot. And we're not done yet.
    You would be considered human, just not intelligent or rational enough to handle your own affairs.

    Is it sexist, yeah definitely and I don't support it.
    Does that make someone universally wrong, no way.

    One or several wrongs doesn't = always wrong.
    I'm wrong a lot, so were they, we're all human.

    We still use government to this day to discriminate for arbitrary reasons. Most people don't think of it in the same context but it's still discrimination.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    You would be considered human, just not intelligent or rational enough to handle your own affairs.
    I would be considered chattel because I don't have a penis, just not as chattel-like as people with browner skin (with or without penises).

    I'd say people have changed just a tad.

    One or several wrongs doesn't = always wrong.
    I'm wrong a lot, so were they, we're all human.
    The same could be said about Hitler, I suppose.
    We all have human DNA, I guess.
    That's where the similarities begin and end, as far as I'm concerned.

  6. #126
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    I would be considered chattel because I don't have a penis, just not as chattel-like as people with browner skin (with or without penises).

    I'd say people have changed just a tad.
    That was wrong, without a doubt.
    I don't condone or endorse that.

    What is most important to me is the ideas.
    Freedom from being lorded over.

    Most of those guys knew they couldn't live up to the ideals.
    They were hoping the we could, eventually.
    We are walking in the opposite direction in many ways though.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    The same could be said about Hitler, I suppose.
    We all have human DNA, I guess.
    That's where the similarities begin and end, as far as I'm concerned.
    Funny enough, I was going to bring that up.
    Nazi Germany was a horrible place for many minorities.
    I don't condone that at all.

    On the other hand, their scientists pushed some of the most revolutionary research at that time.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #127
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    Post The Ideals of our Founding Father's

    I believe WE should build upon them. The sacrifices they gave
    in in return for our Freedom should be highly acknowledged. They
    gave Integrity a new meaning in their Era. They believed in a Society
    of Freedom from tyranny and believed in that we as the People could
    be One. I believe our Ideals rest upon their Ideals. We are the here
    because of THEM.


    Even if one is dead, it is a Duty to remember and DIMINISH the idea
    of forgetting the past. Whoever had voted for that better go back to
    their History books and refresh the mind. "Who care's their dead," who
    cares? Many do. What I'm thinking for example when I see this is "who
    cares if mother never wanted her body burned or buried (whatever one
    you would choose) she's dead. I'm sure most of you would be faithul
    to any in kind respects of their death unless you had some reason to
    despise them. You know what I mean.

    Saying "who cares their dead" is how easily you are found out not
    to have read more than you should have. I advise a retake in American
    History even if you got the "A."
    I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught.
    -Sir Winston Churchill

  8. #128
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    I believe WE should build upon them. The sacrifices they gave
    in in return for our Freedom should be highly acknowledged.

    Their sacrifices are no greater than ours today.

  9. #129
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It's not ancestor worship, it reveling in the presence of good ideas.

    What part of not retaining power only for the elite members of society is bad?
    The "republican form of government" that the Founders guaranteed to all states and the federal government was originally limited to white male property-owners. Pretty much the DEFINITION of limiting power to the elite members of society.

    There's nothing inherently bad about the idea of diffusing political power; that just didn't happen to be one of our Founder's ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Yea, technology has changed but humans have not.
    You may want people to evolve, you can't make them though.
    Technology has caused society and economics to change, which in turn necessitates change in government. It is absurd to think that it is desirable (or even possible) to run a government the same way that it was run in 1789. Our Founders wrote a constitution for an agrarian society of coastal member states, where few people had an education beyond grammar school, where communication took weeks to travel from one end of the country to another, where the average life expectancy was about 37, where there were about three countries in the entire world engaging in substantial international trade, where wars were fought by foot soldiers with muskets, and where human beings were treated as chattel, beasts of burden, or pests to be eliminated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Of course none of what said has been a good enough example of why we should limit self governance.
    I merely pointed out why it's ridiculous to venerate the Founding Fathers. They were fallible politicians, nothing more.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-16-10 at 02:37 AM.
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  10. #130
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I've never understood this ancestor-worship of our Founding Fathers (and that's exactly what it is).

    Our Founding Fathers owned slaves, disenfranchised women, embargoed the entire world, went to war for silly reasons, committed genocide against Native Americans, and had temper tantrums at mild tax increases. For many of them, even their support for representative democracy or checks and balances was wavering at best.

    The Constitution was basically a compromise that was cobbled together from the various ideas that were floating around at one particular moment in time 221 years ago. Anyone who think it's perfect or even close to perfect is deluding themselves.

    Some of their ideas can be built upon. Some of their ideas were just ridiculous and have no place in the United States of 2010, which (if you haven't noticed) has changed a bit since 1789.
    Their ideas created the richest and most powerful country in the world. Of course they weren't perfect, nothing is. But it's the best that's come so far, even after all the centuries since.

    That the Constitution was a compromise is important, and undercuts part of your argument. The founding fathers were a group of very different men, and mostly didn't agree on anything. But the Constitution is important for being the one thing that they could all agree on. All but three in the Constitutional Convention signed the resulting document. So yes, some of "their" ideas are outdated. But basically none of those ideas made it into the Constitution, because there were men there who had more modern ideas on those things. And it's ridiculous to characterize the Constitution as something created by "various ideas floating around at the time". It took 4 months to get some 50 people to all agree on something that would last - and included an amending process, just in case - and under the conditions, nothing could just be thrown in there as whimsically as you characterized. Only the best ideas could make it through. And those ideas have pretty much crafted the Western world since, so there you go.

    Their temper tantrum at tax increases was justified, because they had no say in the government that increased said taxes. Given that the colonies were being exploited by a government that had disenfranchised them, their reasons for war were not the least bit silly. They also provided the amending process in the Constitution which allowed the addition of enfranchising women and blacks and abolishing slavery to that very document. Which isn't even to mention how abolitionist and pro-Native American rights, and even women's rights, many of them were.

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