View Poll Results: What should be done with the Founders' ideas?

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  • We should build upon them, but not completely transform them.

    50 70.42%
  • They need to be fundamentally transformed.

    6 8.45%
  • They're dead. Who cares what they thought?

    7 9.86%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    8 11.27%
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Thread: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

  1. #91
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    It's not a contradiction. Yes, their interpretation trumps all others. But for new circumstances like the one I mentioned, they had no interpretation (that's why it's a new circumstance), and thus a new one must be formed. Basically, if the intent is unclear or unstated, such as when an issue is new, then interpretation is up for grabs. Otherwise, original intent trumps all.
    OK. Of course one must interpret when an issue is new.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #92
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

    People don't realize that "new" philosophies and ideologies don't really exist anymore. Somebody has already thought of it, and probably put it into better words.
    What do you mean they don't really exist anymore?

    FUNDAMENTALLY, humans haven't changed one bit. We're still a bunch of fickle, self-centered animals who will only refrain from butchering one another if there's enough resources to go around, although that is no guarantee...

    Really? You don't think that being able to travel anywhere on the planet doesn't change human nature?

    You don't think being able to exterminate an entire city with the click of a button has changed human nature?

    You don't think the ability for a superpower to effectively eliminate every human being on this planet thru nuclear warfare has changed human nature?

    You don't think the fact that I ate a more diverse diet this past month and most months of the year, than my grandparent's parents had in their entire life has changed human nature?

    Humans are creatures of adaptation. Human nature is determined by humans environment more than by human genetics.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  3. #93
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Why? They never used a computer, flew on an airplane, or fought a war in another country across the ocean. They were farmers and silversmiths and country lawyers.

    Were they important? Sure. But they never intended the government of this nation to be set in an unchanging stasis dictated by the mores and beliefs of the early 19th century.
    I've never flown in a plane nor have I fought in a war.
    I guess I'm a pathetic loser.

    Unchanging stasis.
    The ignorance of that comment.

    The made a very basic set of rules, that ultimately came down to, the government can't lord over you.

    Do you really want to change that?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I would say that their ideas weren't more important. Their ideas were more original and important for the time in which they lived. I'm not sure if a group of original thinkers, who also had the ability to put their thoughts into practice has existed before or since. The FF's great attribute was that their ideas had not been though of previously and/or they were able to enact these thoughts. They were not gods. They were very smart people at the right time in history.
    The were more important because they did something none of you will ever be able to do, that had practically never been done before.

    They had power and they didn't keep it.
    They made the choice to let us have power over ourselves.
    That is more significant than computers, airplanes etc.

    If you ask me, it's been an complete waste.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #94
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The were more important because they did something none of you will ever be able to do, that had practically never been done before.

    They had power and they didn't keep it.
    They made the choice to let us have power over ourselves.
    That is more significant than computers, airplanes etc.

    If you ask me, it's been an complete waste.
    This was a combination of who they were and when they lived. They had original thoughts, they had the ability to put them into action, and they lived in a time when this could happen. Does that make them more important? As I said, for the time in which they lived and their ability to carry these ideas to fruition, yes, but only with those qualifiers.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #95
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This was a combination of who they were and when they lived. They had original thoughts, they had the ability to put them into action, and they lived in a time when this could happen. Does that make them more important? As I said, for the time in which they lived and their ability to carry these ideas to fruition, yes, but only with those qualifiers.
    It doesn't matter what time they lived in, it matters that they did it.

    They made a choice to give up power.
    Something that is incredibly rare and people have the nerve to call that outdated.

    Posh, complete nonsense.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #96
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It doesn't matter what time they lived in, it matters that they did it.

    They made a choice to give up power.
    Something that is incredibly rare and people have the nerve to call that outdated.

    Posh, complete nonsense.
    No one that I can see is saying that their choice was rare. I don't think that it is as rare as you think, but because of the time they lived in, they had far more of a choice than folks who came after. They set up a government. It is far easier to have that kind of choice in those circumstances and to act on that choice, then in a situation when the government already exists. So yes, it does matter what time in which they lived.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #97
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    I believe in holding the Constitution as the next-thing-to-sacred, because our society needs some kind of anchor to keep us from blowing away with the next strong wind (the next "trendy idea" in government).

    No, the Founders were not gods. They were, however, far deeper thinkers with a better understanding of fundamental human nature (the part that changes little over time) than I see in probably ANY modern thinkers.

    Too many modern "thinkers" base political philosophies on "woulda coulda shoulda". They begin with "if men were angels", and in the middle there's a part that says "and then a miracle happens!", and they conclude with "once we've perfected human society."

    Uhg. No thanks. God defend us from well-meaning idiots who think they can perfect human society! (ie eradicate poverty and inequality, or get all people to act rationally and ethically.)

    The Founders knew better. They knew that to have Liberty, you had to accept that Order was going to be less than ideal; that inequalities would happen because people aren't all able to achieve at the same level; that people will not always act rationally and for the greater good.

    They built a government able to withstand fools and tyrants, as long as the Constitution stood as the law of the land, and the people were vigilant that it be obeyed.

    In short, I know the Constitution isn't perfect, but I strongly suspect it is far better than what we'd end up with, if we appointed a bunch of "modern thinkers" to write a new one.

    I'll stick with the Founders, thanks.

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  8. #98
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No one that I can see is saying that their choice was rare. I don't think that it is as rare as you think, but because of the time they lived in, they had far more of a choice than folks who came after. They set up a government. It is far easier to have that kind of choice in those circumstances and to act on that choice, then in a situation when the government already exists. So yes, it does matter what time in which they lived.
    The chances of a rebellion succeeding are small, just about anywhere, anytime.
    They put all their chips in the idea of self governance.

    Now people are saying that we should just give it up because ?????
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #99
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The chances of a rebellion succeeding are small, just about anywhere, anytime.
    They put all their chips in the idea of self governance.

    Now people are saying that we should just give it up because ?????
    The ability for them to rebel was larger than it would be today, much because of our current technology around travel, considering the enemy they were fighting was several thousand miles away, separated by an ocean.

    And who is saying we should give it up?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #100
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    Re: Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    From this report:


    Therefore Hamilton agrees with me, that much of what Congress has done since FDR has been a usurpation of the Constitution.
    Well, I am sure it has happened that congress has acted in a way that was not in the spirit of the constitution. However, I would contend that most of what the US federal government does is still in the spirit of the Hamiltonian view of the constitution, that its actions must be in the general interest of the entire nation.

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