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Thread: Can there ever be too much democracy

  1. #31
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhail View Post
    Its all about liberal democracy.If you left everything to a vote everyone would end up voting for no taxes and massive public spending.
    Isn't that what has been happening since Clinton left office with a surplus?

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Isn't that what has been happening since Clinton left office with a surplus?
    well i would say including when he was in office but your right at least he tried a little.
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    There can absolutely be too much democracy. It's called populism, demagogery and mob rule. The Founders feared it as much as they feared autarchy, and wrote the Constitution accordingly: they gave us a measured dose of democracy leavened with a variety of safeguards and diluted representation.

    We've arguably gone too deep into democracy already, with the popular election of Senators, rather than their appointment by State legislatures.

    In a pure democracy, 51% could vote that it was okay to rape, pillage, plunder and kill the 49% minority. Not good.

    A little democracy is a fine thing. Too much can be like too much food, too much booze, or too much medicine.
    progressive income tax was designed to appeal to such mob mentality.

    it gave congress far more power than the founders ever wanted



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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Pure or complete democracy will require a much high level of education and intelligence of the people.
    As of today, we are no-where close.
    Witness the tea bag rallies.
    Or our Congress.
    And we have just 40% of the people voting.
    Now I know why democracy failed in Greece, and why dictatorships flourish.
    the problem in the USA is representation without taxation of far too many people



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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the problem in the USA is representation without taxation of far too many people
    I agree. I never had any kids but I had to pay taxes my whole life for other people's kids.

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    progressive income tax was designed to appeal to such mob mentality.
    That's not an issue of democracy though. The people don't vote on the income tax, Congress does.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude
    it gave congress far more power than the founders ever wanted
    Two things:
    A) There's a constitutional amendment allowing for an income tax, so what the Founders wanted is a moot point.
    B) The scope of congressional power has nothing to do with how much or how little democracy we have.
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    I agree. I never had any kids but I had to pay taxes my whole life for other people's kids.
    I went to private schools as does my son

    but one can argue an educated society is best for everyone

    welfare merely creates more parasites who take more and more

    educated people produce wealth and need and demand less handouts



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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's not an issue of democracy though. The people don't vote on the income tax, Congress does.



    Two things:
    A) There's a constitutional amendment allowing for an income tax, so what the Founders wanted is a moot point.
    B) The scope of congressional power has nothing to do with how much or how little democracy we have.
    I fail to see the relevance of your pseudo response to what I was saying.

    It was a power grab by congress and appeals to the mob mentality



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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I fail to see the relevance of your pseudo response to what I was saying.

    It was a power grab by congress and appeals to the mob mentality
    But it's not an issue of democracy (i.e. the topic of this thread). You can have a government with expansive powers or limited powers. You can have a democracy with expansive voting rights or limited voting rights. You can have any combination of expansive/limited powers and expansive/limited voting rights; they have nothing to do with one another.
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, there definitely can. California is a perfect example of this, with its referendum system which has bankrupted the state.
    Are you arguing that the system of application itself is the problem - or direct democracy itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    -- I'm specifically referring to the foolish decision of Californians to require a supermajority to raise taxes, but not spending --
    This is the bit I'm curious about - was it the system that you criticise or the people who vote using that system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, it's really not. Politicians may be opportunistic and some of them may not fully understand the issues...but that's still a lot better than the voters who are completely clueless on nearly all issues, not to mention irresponsible and short-sighted.
    I find this strange - the Swiss example has delivered a system where the voting electorate is more informed and more aware of the actions and working of their law makers. Swiss elected lawmakers still make the majority of laws and these laws can be put to test if the electorate chooses - and the result is that lawmakers have to be more careful about their decisions because they know they are scrutinised.

    This would work as a system in a community of 10 just as easily as with a community of 1 billion.

    For a public vote on a law to be triggered, 50,000 Swiss voters have to be collected within 100 days of the publication of any new law. The ratio of cases where a public referendum is triggered is in every 4 out of 100 cases, because the parliamentary process enjoys a very high level of legitimacy.

    Seems all the critique of the American voting public that I see here is because the version of direct democracy applied is open to making bad decisions. Then again - even though most US posters seem to say it doesn't work - a lot of internet research indicates that many US States allow for versions of direct democracy.

    Direct Democracy in Switzerland - workings

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