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Thread: Can there ever be too much democracy

  1. #21
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Too much democracy??

    Yes, it's called the California Ballot Initiative System...
    Better that our politicians just decide what's best for us, because California politicians have such a good reputation in that regard.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kate View Post
    In any country?

    I believe mostly not, but sometimes the people can be wrong or not know what they are getting into. What are your guys' opinions?
    Yes, there definitely can. California is a perfect example of this, with its referendum system which has bankrupted the state. The voters have voted themselves access to an ever-expanding social net, then selfishly refused to raise their own taxes to pay for it. Voters are inconsistent, ill-informed, and short-sighted. At least with elected officials, you have people who devote their entire careers to understanding the issues. That doesn't guarantee that they'll do a good job, but they're certainly more likely to do a good job than the voting public as a whole.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-13-10 at 07:21 PM.
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That doesn't guarantee that they'll do a good job, but they're certainly more likely to do a good job than the voting public as a whole.
    Emphasis added for good reason.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Better that our politicians just decide what's best for us, because California politicians have such a good reputation in that regard.
    I prefer the Republic where elected officials get to perform certain duties for a limited time... Oh wait, that's what we have.

    The CA ballot initiate system needs to be revised. People are voting on things they don't understand...

    "The will of the people" sounds good, until the people are wrong.

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    You don't think that the representatives would do the exact same thing? They are, after all, voted in by the people.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kate View Post
    In any country?

    I believe mostly not, but sometimes the people can be wrong or not know what they are getting into. What are your guys' opinions?
    Well, yeah.
    Any true democracy would be "too much" democracy.
    Would you want to live in a country where people could just vote to reinstate black slavery? Majority wins?
    How about a nation where men could vote to expel females from the workplace, or from public entirely?

    In my opinion.... well, a lot of societies that I really respect don't feel that "majority rule" is a functional way of doing things.
    If 49% of people vote against something and 51% vote for it, and so the government implements it... well, 49% of the population is still unhappy. Everyone is at odds.
    These societies believe in discussing things and compromising until everyone- or as close to 'everyone' as possible- is satisfied.
    Of course, this would not be particularly feasible in a large society like ours.
    It mainly works in small- tribal, really- communities.

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Its all about liberal democracy.If you left everything to a vote everyone would end up voting for no taxes and massive public spending.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Better that our politicians just decide what's best for us,
    No, it's really not. Politicians may be opportunistic and some of them may not fully understand the issues...but that's still a lot better than the voters who are completely clueless on nearly all issues, not to mention irresponsible and short-sighted.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez
    because California politicians have such a good reputation in that regard.
    Actually the California politicians have a poor record because of a voter referendum. I'm specifically referring to the foolish decision of Californians to require a supermajority to raise taxes, but not spending. Is it any wonder that the state is bankrupt when the voters have made it easy to spend more, and hard to raise taxes to pay for it?

    This is the result of direct democracy. Voters spend 30 seconds reading some initiative to limit the government's ability to raise taxes, think "I don't like taxes," and pull the YES lever without so much as giving the matter a second thought. This is just one of many examples, but it perfectly illustrates the point that voters cannot be trusted to have an informed opinion on much of anything. At best, they have a vague notion of what policies they want, and which candidate could better implement those policies.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-13-10 at 08:45 PM.
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You don't think that the representatives would do the exact same thing? They are, after all, voted in by the people.
    They are voted in by the people, but they don't always do what a majority of the people want. Even the most reelection-conscious politician won't ALWAYS blow with the political winds on every single issue. A Congress full of election-conscious politicians is still better than direct democracy.
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    Re: Can there ever be too much democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You don't think that the representatives would do the exact same thing? They are, after all, voted in by the people.
    By 'the same thing' do you mean vote way the people want?

    On most issues, the people don't have all the information. They don't have a background/understanding of public policy and economics. They don't have law degrees or MBA's...

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