View Poll Results: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

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  • Yes

    15 53.57%
  • No

    4 14.29%
  • Not Sure

    5 17.86%
  • Disagree with the premise

    4 14.29%
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Thread: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

  1. #11
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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Perhaps, perhaps not. But sometimes doing "big things" is WORTH the political sacrifice that must be made.
    With 56% of the voters in this country in favor of the repeal of his health care reform bill, that political sacrifice will probable take a very big chunk out of his ass.

    Can you say “political suicide” for the democrats that voted for it?
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    With 56% of the voters in this country in favor of the repeal of his health care reform bill, that political sacrifice will probable take a very big chunk out of his ass.

    Can you say “political suicide” for the democrats that voted for it?
    See my previous post. Sometimes doing big things (health care being a great example) is WORTH the political cost. I know some people struggle with the concept of judging policies by their merits rather than their political ramifications, but give it a try sometime.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-12-10 at 04:54 PM.
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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    See my previous post.
    Saw it, replied to it...... did you miss that?
    Sometimes doing big things (health care being a great example) is WORTH the political cost. I know some people struggle with the concept of judging policies by their merits rather than their political ramifications, but give it a try sometime.
    The political ramification most likely will be a Republican house, Senate, and Presidency in 2013...... and the repeal of the health care bill, and believe me, that will be the drum beat of the Republicans for the next 3 years.

    How's that for "political ramifications"?

    I mean really, if 56% of the voters want this abortion repealed, what kind of merits can it have?
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Saw it, replied to it...... did you miss that?
    Generally when you reply to something, you should at least try to understand what it is you're replying to. If I can type the same thing again in response, then clearly you didn't understand it the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch
    The political ramification most likely will be a Republican house, Senate, and Presidency in 2013...... and the repeal of the health care bill, and believe me, that will be the drum beat of the Republicans for the next 3 years.

    How's that for "political ramifications"?
    In order to repeal the bill, one of two things will need to happen: Either the Republicans get a majority in the House, 60 senators, and the White House in 2013 (AND make a concerted push to repeal it)...or they get a 2/3 majority in the House and 67 senators without the White House (AND make a concerted push to repeal it). Neither of those situations seems particularly plausible given the current composition of our government.

    Speculating about the political climate in 2013 is just silly. So much could happen between now and then. And why would I believe you that that will be the drumbeat of Republicans for the next 3 years? You have no way of knowing what issues will be important to voters in 3 years. Just look back to 2007 for evidence of that...the most important issues on the table were the war in Iraq and immigration reform. Now those are both minor issues at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch
    I mean really, if 56% of the voters want this abortion repealed, what kind of merits can it have?
    So you believe that anything supported by a majority of the voters is a good policy, and anything opposed by a majority of the voters is a bad policy? That is a shockingly simple-minded view of public policy.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-12-10 at 05:18 PM.
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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Generally when you reply to something, you should at least try to understand what it is you're replying to. If I can type the same thing again in response, then clearly you didn't understand it the first time.
    See my post above.



    In order to repeal the bill, one of two things will need to happen: Either the Republicans get a majority in the House, 60 senators, and the White House in 2013 (AND make a concerted push to repeal it)...or they get a 2/3 majority in the House and 67 senators without the White House (AND make a concerted push to repeal it). Neither of those situations seems particularly plausible given the current composition of our government.
    Have you forgotten about "reconciliation"? You can bet your ass the Republicans haven't.

    Speculating about the political climate in 2013 is just silly. So much could happen between now and then. And why would I believe you that that will be the drumbeat of Republicans for the next 3 years? You have no way of knowing what issues will be important to voters in 3 years. Just look back to 2007 for evidence of that...the most important issues on the table were the war in Iraq and immigration reform. Now those are both minor issues at best.
    You seem to be over looking the fact that the voters didn't want this health care bill in the first place, and are pissed that it was stuffed down their throat. I'm pretty sure they won't be forgetting it in the near future..... also take a look at the recent election results, and long term dems that have dropped out of politics..... the dems are so screwed.

    So you believe that anything supported by a majority of the voters is a good policy, and anything opposed by a majority of the voters is a bad policy? That is a shockingly simple-minded view of public policy.
    The 56% figure was to support the fact that the American public thinks it's bad policy........ you know, THE BOSS DON'T LIKE IT!!! That by definition in our society makes it bad policy. It also points to a blood bath this November and the de-funding of this POS.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    I should clarify, I think in the short term Obama will pay a cost; but, health care reform and the other “big things” are here to stay and in the long term Obama will be rewarded politically. Obama has altered the course of this country for the better.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Have you forgotten about "reconciliation"? You can bet your ass the Republicans haven't.
    Under current Senate rules, reconciliation can only be used on things that affect the budget. So while it might theoretically be possible to repeal some individual parts of the health care bill through reconciliation (assuming the Republicans control the House AND the Senate AND the White House AND made a unified push to repeal those parts of the bill through reconciliation...all before the bill takes effect), a wholesale repeal of the bill will not be possible through reconciliation since it affects non-budgetary items. Now, I'm all for an open discussion on whether the reconciliation rules should be changed, but under the present rules what you are suggesting isn't possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch
    You seem to be over looking the fact that the voters didn't want this health care bill in the first place, and are pissed that it was stuffed down their throat.
    The Democrats campaigned on health care in 2006 and 2008, and won both times. If the American people didn't like the result, they should've voted for someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch
    I'm pretty sure they won't be forgetting it in the near future..... also take a look at the recent election results, and long term dems that have dropped out of politics..... the dems are so screwed.
    Despite the fact that I've already posted my view TWICE, you seem to be laboring under the false assumption that I find a short-term political loss to be an unacceptable consequence for the passage of health care reform. If the Republicans take back Congress in 2010 partially due to health care reform, that's OK. It was worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch
    The 56% figure was to support the fact that the American public thinks it's bad policy........ you know, THE BOSS DON'T LIKE IT!!! That by definition in our society makes it bad policy.
    No it doesn't. Policies should be judged on their merits, not what a majority of the electorate thinks at any given moment. Your completely unprincipled view that politicians should always give the people whatever they want is both simple-minded and unethical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch
    It also points to a blood bath this November and the de-funding of this POS.
    De-funding the health care bill isn't going to happen. Most of it is funded through new mandatory entitlement spending, rather than discretionary spending. They might be able to cut the funding for little bits and pieces of the bill if they really want to, but they aren't going to be able to defund anywhere close to the entire thing.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-12-10 at 06:22 PM.
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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post


    De-funding the health care bill isn't going to happen. Most of it is funded through new mandatory entitlement spending, rather than discretionary spending. They might be able to cut the funding for little bits and pieces of the bill if they really want to, but they aren't going to be able to defund anywhere close to the entire thing.
    Add Rep. Tom Petri (R-Wis.) to the roster of Republicans hedging a bit on whether the party can repeal the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

    Petri said Republicans don’t have to repeal the health care plan. They could effectively quash it by refusing to fund the initiatives as each one comes before Congress for authorization.

    “The president can’t spend money unless it’s appropriated by the Congress,” he said.
    GOP Rep: We Can De-Fund Health Care Reform Instead of Repealing It The Washington Independent

    Over at the Hill’s Blog Briefing Room, Jordan Fabian is reporting that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), one of the earliest and most vocal advocates of repealing the health care reform law, is now backing a new plan “that he says would allow the Republicans to avoid a presidential veto while negating the effects of a new healthcare law.” “The 2008 GOP presidential nominee backed a plan that would strip funding from the healthcare law, which he says would not take an override to a veto to accomplish”:

    “When I say repeal, people say you’re not going to be able to do it,” he said on KQTH FM Radio. “I am confident we will get majorities in both houses in the fall. And that means the power of the purse…If we cut off the money, it doesn’t take an override to a veto.”
    Wonk Room Will Republicans Be Able To Defund Health Care Reform?

    Thursday, March 25, 2010
    Boehner (R) Promises to Defund HealthCare Law if Republicans Take The House
    Berman Post: Boehner (R) Promises to Defund HealthCare Law if Republicans Take The House



    Need I go on?.... there are 41, 297 more hits if you would like to read them.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    I'm well aware of what Republican congressmen are SAYING they might do if they're elected. Most of that is pre-election posturing, not a serious legislative strategy. But let's examine how our government works to see what they are ACTUALLY capable of doing: Most of the health care bill is mandatory spending, not discretionary spending. That means that the Republicans cannot simply choose to not allocate the funds. They would have to pass a bill repealing the mandatory spending. As long as Barack Obama is president, that is simply not going to happen.

    One of your own links confirms this:
    As Fabian notes, “Eliminating funds for the health law would likely be done through the appropriations process in Congress, but it is unclear how Republicans would accomplish their goal by sidestepping a veto. Under the constitution, the president has the right to veto any bill that is passed by Congress.” Indeed, it’s also unclear how much damage the Republicans could actually do, since most of the reform legislation is funded through mandatory spending, which is harder for Congress to control than discretionary spending.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-12-10 at 06:43 PM.
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    Re: Will doing “big things” cost Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm well aware of what Republican congressmen are SAYING they might do if they're elected. Most of that is pre-election posturing, not a serious legislative strategy. But let's examine how our government works to see what they are ACTUALLY capable of doing: Most of the health care bill is mandatory spending, not discretionary spending. That means that the Republicans cannot simply choose to not allocate the funds. They would have to pass a bill repealing the mandatory spending. As long as Barack Obama is president, that is simply not going to happen.

    One of your own links confirms this:
    Brooke Buchanan, a McCain spokesperson told The Hill that the move would be done using "fencing language" in an appropriations bill that would get rid of the health bill funding.


    But under the constitution, the president has the right to veto any bill that is passed by Congress. Yet, Buchanan said that placing the language in a large spending bill would force Obama to veto the entire legislation, suggesting that the president would rather not take that action.
    McCain: GOP hopes to sidestep veto in repeal efforts - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

    Do you really think that political shenanigans can only be pulled by the democrats? Where there is a will, there is a way…. Especially if that is what is wanted by a majority of the voters….. 56% as of last poll.

    You really should learn to recognize when you are defeated.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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