View Poll Results: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

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    14 38.89%
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Thread: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I guess the way I see it is that if being forced to provide service by the government is slavery. Than, yes, so are things like the draft, jury duty, paying taxes so that the poor can have a lawyer, etc.

    I guess that would mean that one some level, forced service is necessary for a functional society.
    Like I have been saying it is indeed subjective. I think the debates with Goobieman and reefedjib have more than backed up my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Read the OP and get back to me.
    Slavery is not subjective. The institution of slavery is well known and conscription, "slave" of drugs, and coercion do not meet the definition.

    slavery

    condition in which one human being was owned by another. A slave was considered by law as property, or chattel, and was deprived of most of the rights ordinarily held by free persons.

    There is no consensus on what a slave was or on how the institution of slavery should be defined. Nevertheless, there is general agreement among historians, anthropologists, economists, sociologists, and others who study slavery that most of the following characteristics should be present in order to term a person a slave. The slave was a species of property; thus, he belonged to someone else. In some societies slaves were considered movable property, in others immovable property, like real estate. They were objects of the law, not its subjects. Thus, like an ox or an ax, the slave was not ordinarily held responsible for what he did. He was not personally liable for torts or contracts. The slave usually had few rights and always fewer than his owner, but there were not many societies in which he had absolutely none. As there are limits in most societies on the extent to which animals may be abused, so there were limits in most societies on how much a slave could be abused. The slave was removed from lines of natal descent. Legally and often socially he had no kin. No relatives could stand up for his rights or get vengeance for him. As an “outsider,” “marginal individual,” or “socially dead person” in the society where he was enslaved, his rights to participate in political decision making and other social activities were fewer than those enjoyed by his owner. The product of a slave's labour could be claimed by someone else, who also frequently had the right to control his physical reproduction.


    Slavery was a form of dependent labour performed by a nonfamily member. The slave was deprived of personal liberty and the right to move about geographically as he desired. There were likely to be limits on his capacity to make choices with regard to his occupation and sexual partners as well. Slavery was usually, but not always, involuntary. If not all of these characterizations in their most restrictive forms applied to a slave, the slave regime in that place is likely to be characterized as “mild”; if almost all of them did, then it ordinarily would be characterized as “severe.”
    Welcome to Encyclopędia Britannica's Guide to Black History

  3. #83
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Slavery is not subjective. The institution of slavery is well known and conscription, "slave" of drugs, and coercion do not meet the definition.
    They are defined in the dictionary.

    I noticed no dictionary definition from you?

    That is not the definition of the word. That is the history of black slavery. With examples of that type of slavery.

    Blacks were not the only slaves, and slavery differed from society to society. Again proving it is not only a matter of perspective, but subjective.

    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #84
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    They are defined in the dictionary.

    I noticed no dictionary definition from you?
    I didn't realize we were comparing dictionary definitions. I am happy to say that I am bigger and longer!

    That is not the definition of the word. That is the history of black slavery. With examples of that type of slavery.

    Blacks were not the only slaves, and slavery differed from society to society. Again proving it is not only a matter of perspective, but subjective.
    That article is found in the Black History Encyclopedia but is not restricted to a discussion of solely black slavery. You may want to read the article before spouting off about it.

    That article goes much further that some measly dictionary definition. You are slayed.

    Thanks.
    You are most welcome.

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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    According to the actual definition, no it does not.
    You have yet to show how indirect slavery is not slavery.

    Yea, that is exactly what I said.
    You said:
    No because they are not restricting your freedom to...
    -Move someplace else.
    -Get tax exempt status etc.
    You have a choice.
    Your argument rests on "you have a choice".

    Everyone always has a choice. If you have a choice, then, according to you, you are not a slave. As everyone always has a choice, then no one is a slave.

    I have already shown in 3 or 4 posts this is not true.
    On the contrary - you have argued that:

    You may:
    -Move someplace else.
    -Get a [conscription-]exempt status etc.
    Thus, you have a choice.
    As you have a choice, conscription cannot be slavery.

    You can disagree all you like. It makes it no less true.

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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I didn't realize we were comparing dictionary definitions. I am happy to say that I am bigger and longer!
    Even if you did pull up a dictionary definition, that wouldn't matter because unlike laws of physics- dictionaries are culturally defined.

    That article goes much further that some measly dictionary definition. You are slayed.
    You defeat your own argument by using a non-objective source to support it! That article is opinion about a particular concept.

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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You have yet to show how indirect slavery is not slavery.
    Truth is I don't care. I was just proving how subjective the view of slavery is. I don't even necessarily disagree with you, just making a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You said:

    Your argument rests on "you have a choice".

    Everyone always has a choice. If you have a choice, then, according to you, you are not a slave. As everyone always has a choice, then no one is a slave.

    On the contrary - you have argued that:

    Thus, you have a choice.
    As you have a choice, conscription cannot be slavery.

    You can disagree all you like. It makes it no less true.
    You have it completly wrong.

    I am not saying it ALWAYS boils down to having a choice.

    In your example it is clear people have a choice with no PENALTY'S or CRIMINAL actions against them if they leave or invest in tax shelters etc. With conscription you have no choice, period. Either do it or go to jail, period.

    Either way it is no less subjective.

    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I didn't realize we were comparing dictionary definitions. I am happy to say that I am bigger and longer!


    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    That article is found in the Black History Encyclopedia but is not restricted to a discussion of solely black slavery. You may want to read the article before spouting off about it.

    That article goes much further that some measly dictionary definition. You are slayed.
    It is not a definition. As I said the concept is not structured by one system of slavery etc. Slavery has been defined for thousands of years. Even before the concept of private ownership was thought of.

    It just does not apply or support your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You are most welcome.
    I appreciate that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #89
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshlyMinted View Post
    Even if you did pull up a dictionary definition, that wouldn't matter because unlike laws of physics- dictionaries are culturally defined.

    You defeat your own argument by using a non-objective source to support it! That article is opinion about a particular concept.
    In other words, the dictionary definition is opinion and connected to linguistic use of the word and not historical precedent, which I linked to with my encyclopedia article, which is NOT opinion, it is fact. Encyclopedia beats dictionary.

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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Truth is I don't care.
    Of course not.


    You have it completly wrong.
    I am not saying it ALWAYS boils down to having a choice.

    So, it boils down to having a choice when it is convenient for your argument.
    10-4.

    In your example it is clear people have a choice with no PENALTY'S or CRIMINAL actions against them if they leave or invest in tax shelters etc. With conscription you have no choice, period. Either do it or go to jail, period.
    You're confuring 'having a choice' with 'having choices that are palatable'. These are not interchangable, and as such, your distintion, above, does not fly. You -always- have a choice.

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