View Poll Results: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

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Thread: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

  1. #61
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It does not make it slavery as you are represented in government. It has nothing to do with mechanics, it has to do with fact.
    It has everthing do to with mechanics - that being forced to provide for others isn't slavery because you're being taxed to do it, rather than being forced to do it directly. There's no real difference in those things as the necessary condition -- forced extraction of the value of one's labor to directly benefit others -- is present in both.

    All you're doing is arguing that a representative government cannot enslave people, which is, on its face, unsound.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    There is a distinction though.

    Is the coercion for personal benefit like theft or is it for the benefit of the person being coerced.
    If it you force people to do things for your benefit, it is slavery.

    If you force your child not to climb into the dish washer, it is for her benefit.
    I didn't think of that. However, it doesn't completely settle my doubts. Me wanting government to force people to not murder is in some ways for my own benefit. I want to reduce the chances of me being murdered as much as possible. At least that is my primary personal motivation. Also, I greatly benefit from not living in a society where lives are routinely in danger.

  3. #63
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I didn't think of that. However, it doesn't completely settle my doubts. Me wanting government to force people to not murder is in some ways for my own benefit. I want to reduce the chances of me being murdered as much as possible. At least that is my primary personal motivation. Also, I greatly benefit from not living in a society where lives are routinely in danger.
    Sure but remember also you are not requiring the potential murder to do "work" for your benefit.
    You are requiring them to not do "work" for your benefit.

    Work in this instance is defined as; doing something.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #64
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Sure but remember also you are not requiring the potential murder to do "work" for your benefit.
    You are requiring them to not do "work" for your benefit.

    Work in this instance is defined as; doing something.
    Positive and negative response to something is still a change in action, which inhibits freedom. Since the action is still changed, I don't think it is a good distinction to make.

  5. #65
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    If you are given no choice under threat of force be it physical or imprisonment, it is slavery.

    You can disagree all you like. It makes it no less true.
    Nice. Any argument I make is disqualified according to you. Conscription is not slavery. You are forced to do it but you are not property and you are paid.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It has everthing do to with mechanics - that being forced to provide for others isn't slavery because you're being taxed to do it, rather than being forced to do it directly.
    Irrelevant. After you pay it is no longer yours. It is the governments and spent by YOUR representatives.

    The definition of "slavery" does not apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There's no real difference in those things as the necessary condition -- forced extraction of the value of one's labor to directly benefit others -- is present in both.
    Yes I agree some aspects are present. It does not make it slavery though. That's like saying our Representative Republic is socialist because certain aspects of it are indeed socialist. It just is not the case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    All you're doing is arguing that a representative government cannot enslave people, which is, on its face, unsound.
    I am not arguing anything even remotely close to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #67
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If it you force people to do things for your benefit, it is slavery.
    That is an insufficient definition. If you do not reimburse them and if they are your property, then it is slavery. Otherwise, it is coercion.

  8. #68
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Nice. Any argument I make is disqualified according to you. Conscription is not slavery. You are forced to do it but you are not property and you are paid.
    Yes you are the property of the government in question. This is made known to you immediately even in our volunteer military.

    Ask anyone from the former Soviet Union what it was like. It is slavery.

    I am going by the actual definition, which is correct by any standard of debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #69
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    That is an insufficient definition. If you do not reimburse them and if they are your property, then it is slavery. Otherwise, it is coercion.
    Coercion -

    1.the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.

    2.force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.

    Synonym for Slavery -

    Servitude is compulsory service, often such as is required by a legal penalty: penal servitude. 4. moil, labor.


    Looks like the same end by different means.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 05-10-10 at 03:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #70
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    Re: Is slavery a matter of perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Irrelevant. After you pay it is no longer yours. It is the governments and spent by YOUR representatives.
    And THAT is irrelevant. You're arguing that the government, not you, are providing for these people; this is disingenuous because everythig the govermnet has it gets from the people it governs. Directly or indirectly, you are being forced to provide for these people; directly or indiectly, that still makes you a slave.

    Yes I agree some aspects are present. It does not make it slavery though. That's like saying our Representative Republic is socialist because certain aspects of it are indeed socialist. It just is not the case here.
    You, yourself noted that:

    -So if the state owns you it is (not) OK.
    -Sorry "national duty" is no less slavery by it's definition.
    -If you are given no choice under threat of force be it physical or imprisonment, it is slavery.

    All of these things can be correctly applied to the issue at hand.
    I am not arguing anything even remotely close to that.
    You placed some credence on the fact that It is the governments and spent by YOUR representatives.". If you are not arguing anythig 'remotely close to that', then your notation here is meaningless.

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