Overall, was feminism bad for America?

Catz Part Deux said:

Wrong. This is an ingrained stereotype. I call it volkswagen theory. You look for it, so you see it.

People express emotions not on the basis of gender, but on the basis of personality type.

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I disagree and experience dictates that position. In any given situation of emotional stress would you bet your paycheck that the woman will act out emotionally before a man will?

Men and women are not equal or "wired" equally. To deny this is to deny decades of study.

NoJingoLingo said:

I disagree and experience dictates that position. In any given situation of emotional stress would you bet your paycheck that the woman will act out emotionally before a man will?

Men and women are not equal or "wired" equally. To deny this is to deny decades of study.

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I would never, ever bet any money that a woman would act out emotionally before a man would. Never in a million years.

It totally, completely, 100% depends on the person and the situation.

Re: Dr. Laura

Catz Part Deux said:

Do you really have to ask this? Why do you think Jerry has such a soft spot for me? Let me clue you in:

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Is that you?

Catz Part Deux said:

You know what...screw that noise. I've heard this b.s. about "men and women are different" for my entire life. Guess what? Men and men are different. Women and women are different.

My personality type is ENFP. Only 3% of the world's population type is the same as mine. I have about 136% more in common witha male ENFP than I do with a woman of another personality type.

I'm really sick of how people use their engrained prejudices, on both sides, about male/female roles to justify stupidity.

We're all different. Judging people on the basis of gender, and believing that you can draw any meaningful conclusions about their personalities or psychologies is stupid.

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It's obvious your entire outlook is about YOU and YOUR difference to others. When you look at men and women as a whole, as in Gender studies, the differences are quite clear. In fact I think we can use your attitude in this thread as an examples of emotional argumentation.

NoJingoLingo said:

I disagree and experience dictates that position. In any given situation of emotional stress would you bet your paycheck that the woman will act out emotionally before a man will?

Men and women are not equal or "wired" equally. To deny this is to deny decades of study.

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Unfortunately the recent study involving men and doses of oxytoxin proves that men and women generally feel emotions differently - personality types aside.

Emotions are just chemical responses to physical stimuli, anyway - so I'm not too bothered by studies that discover men and women are fueled by different juices. Seems kind of moot to do a study on it, really.

Catz Part Deux said:

You can tell how assertive someone will be based upon the length of their ring finger (4D) in comparison to their index finger (2D).

Men whose ring fingers are shorter than their index fingers have lower levels of testosterone. Women whose ring fingers are as long or longer than their index fingers tend to have high levels of testosterone.

The old hunter/gatherer dynamic has largely been discarded. It's about hormones, these days.

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Hunter/gatherer dynamic is evolutionary. Men are generally, physically, stronger and can therefore sustain more the physical effort needed to hunt game. Women, not being equally physical are better suited to gathering. We still retain those evolutionary differences and they don't stop at physical build either. Women seek out security for their offspring while men seek the most viable female to ensure the continuation of his genes. These and other evolutionary holdovers still dictate much of our behavior. Just because you have high testosterone makes you an anomaly or an exception, not the rule. You are arguing based on your personal bias and ignoring the the norm.

Mickey Shane said:

One time when I was 17, I was stopped at a red light when a couple (girl first) got out of their car and started fighting on the median. The guy was hollering real loud and taking swings at the girl. I drove off when the light turned green. There were many other cars at that intersection. I hoped someone gave her a hand.

I weighed about 150 lbs. soaking wet at the time. The guy was much bigger and older than I was. Admittedly, I was afraid of him.

I've never forgotten the cowardliness that kept me from offering assistance. I did finally fill out to 225 with the help of 20 years of construction work and a great cook for a spouse.

I need to atone for my sin. Maybe someday I will get the chance. No one will ever suffer physical abuse from anyone around me again. I will get involved next time.

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So you just drove away?
What kind of chicken **** is that?

*pick up cell phone*
*beep bop bope beep*
"911, what is your emergency?"

Ok - see - that's what you do, you call and report that someone is beating the **** out of someone else - report the address and vehicle description if it applies.

:doh

So - maybe when you were 17 you didn't have a cellphone. . . well then. . .
My husband was driving through town and saw someone beating up his girlfriend - he flagged down a cop - there, done.

Why is doing the right thing scary? The police are there to intervene when you should not.

Feminis: The Debate

As a young woman, I believe women are not only entitled to the same
rights as men but the equal respects of determination and hard work.
We are an independant mind that flourishes to, we are a gender of
idealism that can be used in many ways. We are willing to support one
another in dire need. We are We because We ARE the People.

"Man work's from Dusk to Dawn, but a Women's work is never Done."

reefedjib said:

I am sure there is a variety of opinions on this. Such a social movement changed a lot about America, some good and some bad. What is your opinion about it overall?

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The liberation of women in this country was the best thing to every happen to this nation.

One, for my 5 daughters.

And me, for all the loves I have known.

What a country!

Simba said:

The liberation of women in this country was the best thing to every happen to this nation.

One, for my 5 daughters.

And me, for all the loves I have known.

What a country!

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Much as I'd like to agree, I can't say it was the best thing that ever happened, except from a purely selfish perspective.
I'd say it was part of the best thing that ever happened in America, to date: the civil rights movement, ostensibly equal rights for all citizens, and an end to legally-sanctioned discrimination and inequality based on race, ethnicity, gender, handicap, religion, etc.

I wouldn't want to be perceived as implying that women's lib was somehow better or more important than the abolition of black slavery, racial segregation, or Jim Crow laws.
It's all part and parcel of the same thing.

1069 said:

Much as I'd like to agree, I can't say it was the best thing that ever happened, except from a purely selfish perspective.
I'd say it was part of the best thing that ever happened in America, to date: the civil rights movement, ostensibly equal rights for all citizens, and an end to legally-sanctioned discrimination and inequality based on race, ethnicity, gender, handicap, religion, etc.

I wouldn't want to be perceived as implying that women's lib was somehow better or more important than the abolition of black slavery, racial segregation, or Jim Crow laws.

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Absolutely. You got me there. They were all equally good. Only, from my selfish perspective as a man, I was thinking only of myself.

*winks*

Aunt Spiker said:

Emotions are just chemical responses to physical stimuli, anyway - so I'm not too bothered by studies that discover men and women are fueled by different juices. Seems kind of moot to do a study on it, really.

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It's just that eternal quest to find a scientific study to prove, once and for all, that there is no difference between a man and a woman besides their genitalia. At that point, women will find something else to be unhappy about.:mrgreen:

lizzie said:

It's just that eternal quest to find a scientific study to prove, once and for all, that there is no difference between a man and a woman besides their genitalia. At that point, women will find something else to be unhappy about.:mrgreen:

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God bless the female genitalia.:mrgreen:

Aunt Spiker said:

Unfortunately the recent study involving men and doses of oxytoxin proves that men and women generally feel emotions differently - personality types aside.

Emotions are just chemical responses to physical stimuli, anyway - so I'm not too bothered by studies that discover men and women are fueled by different juices. Seems kind of moot to do a study on it, really.

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Absolutely right.
Men do act out emotionally, it just depends on the subject/context/situation.

I could prove this here but it would have to be a trap to truly make it work well.

Catz Part Deux said:

You apparently have a strong need to see it as "men are this" and "women are this." But it tain't necessarily so. Our evolutionary heritage is A LOT more complicated than that.

For instance, the level of testosterone in mothers determines whether they have male or female offspring, and it is a changeable condition:

Women with high testosterone may be more likely to have sons - Times Online

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In general it is true, having a bit more testosterone does not make you that much different.
You probably fall nearer to the end of the bell curve but you probably act like a regular women, more or less.

Catz Part Deux said:

I would guess that River has higher testosterone than average, as do Chuck, Aps, and 1069. All mothers of sons, fwiw.

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I understand that.
It increases the likely hood of acceptance but it doesn't change anything about women acting like women because they are..... women.

To understand better.

Most women = act less like a generalized woman and act more like a generalized woman.
In the end though, they all have significant, observable traits of a female personality.
(This section includes a huge amount of women.)

A minority of women = don't act like a generalized woman at all.

*snip* - nevermind! a 'duh' moment.

I would guess that River has higher testosterone than average, as do Chuck, Aps, and 1069. All mothers of sons, fwiw.

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Actually, I supposedly have estrogen dominance (which is really just a progesterone deficiency, I think); that's what causes me to have fibrocystic breast condition, which makes my boobs hurt really bad for a week or two out of every month.

What I read recently is that when the father of a child is under 18 (as the father of my children was when they were born), there is an 80-85% chance the children will be male.
The mother's age apparently doesn't matter, although statistics show that slightly more than 70% of teenage mothers have boys (again, this could be related to the age of the father).

Apparently XX-sperm (the kind that produces girl babies) are larger, slower, and longer-living than XY sperms, which produce boys. XY sperms are faster, but die quicker.
Adolescent boys tend to produce a lot of XY sperm, and not very many XX sperm at all.

I never had any idea that the woman had any part in determining whether the baby would be male or female.
That is interesting.

rivrrat said:

Exactly. Every serious BF I've ever had has known that if he bought me an expensive, white diamond ring I would likely be pissed. Because it would indicate he didn't know me very well. :lol: First off, I think diamonds are boring - they're clear for ****s sake. Secondly, I don't want big and gaudy. Third, I don't want expensive. I told my ex-fiance that he could have gotten my engagement ring out of gum ball machine and I would have been okay with it. LOL Fact is, I'll take cut glass or crystal over some expensive diamond any day of the week. I would 100x rather the money be spent on something other than a piece of jewelry that I wouldn't be wearing often. I mean hell... spend that damn money on the honeymoon if it's so necessary to spend it! Geez.

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I think diamonds are awesome. So sparkly in my timepiece... ; D

Tucker Case said:

What was cool about it, and one of the reasons I truly love my wife, is that she "reciprocated" the act a few weeks later asking me to marry her and her "bribe" was a hi-def big screen TV (something she knew I wouldn't buy for myself but wanted) which she had delivered while I was at work. I walked in and she was down on one knee (begging) with the remote in her hand (bribing).

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You lucky son of a...

Exactly. Every serious BF I've ever had has known that if he bought me an expensive, white diamond ring I would likely be pissed.

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Oh, I can't stand jewelry, really.
Gems are just rocks, to me, however expensive.
I can't wear rings at all, they hurt my fingers. I have sensory issues.
My husband and I got each other's names tattooed on our backs when we got married, instead of rings.
My son, however, recently bought his fiancee an ostentatious ring which apparently cost six hundred dollars.
I think it's a foolish expenditure under the circumstances, but they're both really happy with it, and I guess that's what matters.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

1069 said:

Actually, I supposedly have estrogen dominance (which is really just a progesterone deficiency, I think); that's what causes me to have fibrocystic breast condition, which makes my boobs hurt really bad for a week or two out of every month.

What I read recently is that when the father of a child is under 18 (as the father of my children was when they were born), there is an 80-85% chance the children will be male.
The mother's age apparently doesn't matter, although statistics show that slightly more than 70% of teenage mothers have boys (again, this could be related to the age of the father).

Apparently XX-sperm (the kind that produces girl babies) are larger, slower, and longer-living than XY sperms, which produce boys. XY sperms are faster, but die quicker.
Adolescent boys tend to produce a lot of XY sperm, and not very many XX sperm at all.

I never had any idea that the woman had any part in determining whether the baby would be male or female.
That is interesting.

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I just thought of another implication of this ^ which the study I read did not address.
If it's true, it would mean that in ancient/prehistoric times, when everyone began to reproduce as soon as they were physiologically capable of it, there would've been far more males than females in any given population, rather than the roughly equal numbers we have today.

Mell said:

''You know, I couldn't help but think this:

It seems acceptable debate material to actually ask "Overall, was feminism bad for America?" - no one is really pissed that this was proposed and heavily debated.

But what if the kin were asked: "Overall, was the emancipation of slaves bad for America?" - people would not take it too well and a sound debate would not be had.

However, the slaves were emancipated in the late 1800's - given the right to vote much later. So - why doesn't anyone try to connect lines from the emancipation to a lot of problems that have been penned to feminism in some fashion? (like the economical impacts and so forth).''

It is a real pity that significant points such as this one and and a number of others get burried under mounds of rubbish and nonsense comments and abuse.

I made a thread asking something like this a few days ago. Here is the link.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/72399-should-hard-line-taken.html

But, it would be progress if these thread were at lease kept clean of heckling, trolling ....

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First of all...in life it helps deal with **** if you have an actual sense of humor. Ive seen **** and still work with people going through what can only be described as living hell and let me promise you...if I didnt develop a very dark sense of humor I wouldnt be as healthy emotionally (to what level I still am) as I am. So when a thread like this comes along I think it is totally appropriate to say things like "of course I believe in womens lib...I LIKE it when a woman gets on top!"

As to discussing this issue with regard to the emancipation issue...I would say its a FAIR question and my response would likely be the same. That change came about is of course a GOOD thing. However I think the 'change' whould truly have come about in a much more healthy manner if it hadnt occured the way it did. Society evolved. When you look at the emancipation issue, several states had already banned slavery before we even became a country. The importation of slaves was banned shortly after we became a country. And on a societal evolution scale, we as a country are still in relative infancy when compared to most European countries. I think the change would have occured and we would be MUCH further along with regard to race relations had their not been the threat of force. The unfortunate consequence is that once that threat became a reality you had groups spring up that exploited the hurt, the anger, the fear. Its no different today. Much smaller numbers...same pattern...same types of people.

I think the same can be said for the womens rights 'movement'. Instead of allowing a natural evolution (which was already occuring) we have a movement where ALL women were being redefined (and consequently, mens roles as well) and sometimes NOT in ncessarily a GOOD way.

So you can have both...a little bit of fun AND serious debate. But maybe it would start with anonymous people sitting at their keyboards realizing they arent on the UN Human Rights counsel and are just participating in an opinion blog and not take themselves quite so seriously.

First of all...in life it helps deal with **** if you have an actual sense of humor. Ive seen **** and still work with people going through what can only be described as living hell and let me promise you...if I didnt develop a very dark sense of humor I wouldnt be as healthy emotionally (to what level I still am) as I am. So when a thread like this comes along I think it is totally appropriate to say things like "of course I believe in womens lib...I LIKE it when a woman gets on top!"

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That said, you're male, and so that's a little like a white person claiming that the best way to deal with the issue of slavery and Jim Crow laws is just to take a comical view of it, and that blacks really ought to quit being such goddamned buzzkills and develop a sense of humor already.

Or like a gentile joking about the holocaust and being unable to understand why Jews have to be so danged serious about everything all the frickin' time. Etc, etc.

We need to understand that these are still sensitive issues to many people, especially older people who actually lived through these dark times.

1069 said:

That said, you're male, and so that's a little like a white person claiming that the best way to deal with the issue of slavery and Jim Crow laws is just to take a comical view of it, and that blacks really ought to quit being such goddamned buzzkills and develop a sense of humor already.

Or like a gentile joking about the holocaust and being unable to understand why Jews have to be so danged serious about everything all the frickin' time. Etc, etc.

We need to understand that these are still sensitive issues to many people, especially older people who actually lived through these dark times.

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Ive never had leprosy...Im pretty sure I can be empathetic enough to know that it must suck...

VanceMack said:

Ive never had leprosy...Im pretty sure I can be empathetic enough to know that it must suck...

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But I doubt you can be empathetic enough to know how someone who had leprosy 40 years ago, has since been cured, but still bears hidden scars, feels upon hearing leprosy jokes and being told to go buy a sense of humor.
Even I'm not empathetic enough to know that.
Sometimes it's better to play it safe.