View Poll Results: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

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  • Yes, it was bad for America

    48 41.03%
  • No, it was good for America

    51 43.59%
  • A little bad and a little good. Overall it was neutral

    4 3.42%
  • A little bad and a little good. It changed a lot but not one way or the other.

    10 8.55%
  • Other...

    6 5.13%
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Thread: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

  1. #31
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Very good point.
    This was a very difficult decision for me to make. One of the final straws was watching my ex start to talk to my adolescent daughter in the same way he did to me...demeaning and disrespectful.

    When she started to grow up and have a mind of her own, he became completely alienated from her. They now have very little contact (she's 16), largely by his choice. But also by hers. He has been emotionally abusive to her.

    You have no idea how sad this makes me. My kids deserved to have a father that loved and protected them. I made a bad choice, and my kids have suffered because of it.

    Yikes! Glad you were able to get out of a bad situation. Your story underlines the good that came from feminism and the growth of female participation in the workforce. I fully believe that that is the case and I honor feminism for doing so. However, there are unintended consequences. Feminism may be the wrong place to lay blame, but if not feminism then feminism is a corollary effect.
    I would say that feminism, in some ways, has allowed men to feel less attached maritally. Women ARE capable of handling things, and men seem to feel little remorse or guilt for abandoning their families, as a consequence.

    I have only to look at my own situation. My ex went from being a full-time dad to a 30% dad. These days, that seems to be about as much as he's willing to invest. He rarely goes beyond 30%. He built a life around himself, and that's what he does.

    His daughter went with him to a family reunion, and reported that he said, in a group of family members..."I have 3 priorities...tennis, sex, and beer." My daughter, who is 16, picked up on the fact that his kids weren't even on the list of priorities.

    I am not saying the traditional family structure was perfect - far from it as women were trapped by their inability to survive independently. Single parent households carry their own damaging baggage. A new stable family structure has failed to appear. I believe that new family structure is the clan marriage.
    In our case, my brother and sister in law, and their kids, and my close friends serve as a surrogate family structure with us. We pitch in and help each other and spend a lot of time together. Most of the families I know don't have much family nearby, so we've formed our own. We socialize together, tote kids around, and take care of each other.

    True enough. Personally, I will never get married so that I will never get divorced.
    I've noticed that a lot of couples that I know these days, with kids, aren't married. They don't seem any less stable than my marriage was. In fact, they seem more stable.

    I would say that at least half of the marriages on my street are miserable.

  2. #32
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I agree, and I am frustrated that so many women still cling to out-dated ideas such as expecting an expensive engagement ring that is equal to 2 months of a guy's salary (seriously? How stupid) and expecting guys to always pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post

    QFT

    This brings back memories of when I got engaged to my ex. We'd gone and picked out our rings together. I have small hands and a huge rock would just look gaudy, so I chose a small, but elegant, ring with a 1/10 carat diamond. In fact, all three rings together didn't come close to even one month of his salary at the time. When one of his relatives saw it for the first time, she actually asked me if I was disappointed.

    I just stared at her for a minute and said, "I picked it out. Should I be disappointed?"

    I thought it sad that she can only measure a man's love by how much he spends on her. I never respected her after that.

    Exactly. Every serious BF I've ever had has known that if he bought me an expensive, white diamond ring I would likely be pissed. Because it would indicate he didn't know me very well. First off, I think diamonds are boring - they're clear for ****s sake. Secondly, I don't want big and gaudy. Third, I don't want expensive. I told my ex-fiance that he could have gotten my engagement ring out of gum ball machine and I would have been okay with it. LOL Fact is, I'll take cut glass or crystal over some expensive diamond any day of the week. I would 100x rather the money be spent on something other than a piece of jewelry that I wouldn't be wearing often. I mean hell... spend that damn money on the honeymoon if it's so necessary to spend it! Geez.

  3. #33
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Why is there this ridiculous assumption that it is somehow the woman's responsibility to stay at home and raise kids, and be primarily focused on raising kids? Do we have an equivalent expectation for men? Oh, yeah. No. Of course not.

    So, basically, we have a societal expectation, primarily in the middle and upper classes (because lower class women have ALWAYS WORKED, mostly outside the home), that women are caregivers to children and men.
    Well, it's basically that women are physically and emotionally designed to nurture and take care of. There's nothing shameful in that, and is (imo) an essential part of raising children. I don't expect, nor desire men to be like women. I also don't expect women to raise their own children anymore, as it appears that many don't really desire to, but it's certainly better for children to have a physically and psychologically present and devoted mother to raise them.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  4. #34
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Well, it's basically that women are physically and emotionally designed to nurture and take care of.
    That's simply ridiculous. We have breasts, that doesn't make us more emotionally capable of nurturing than men. But of course, espousing this perspective is a handy con that allows someone to be a kept woman who doesn't have to work for a living.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    For the record, it has always been my contention, here and elsewhere, that women should pay an equal share of the dating costs. I also find the tradition of the man buying an engagement ring (a costly and stupid tradition) to be equally out-dated.
    I get you, and I'm glad there are a growing number of women that think like that. However there's a LOT that don't. I'd say every date prior to my current girlfriend that I had gone on I was expected to pay.

    Given that this seems to come from within the male peer culture, it isn't something that women can control, per se. I certainly have never cared how much money the guys I date make, all I've ever cared about was that they lived responsibly within their means.
    I think largely it does come from the male population, but not completely. Not just from the peer culture either. This is something that society has basically instilled in young males even as they grow up. I just think as a culture we are FAR more accepting of a women in traditionally male roles than we are the other way around at this point, which leads in part to men's frustrations at being pushed into the other role and womens frustration with the male stubbornness to it. What seems more natural to females now, the ambiguous gender roles, is not a reality to males at this point.

    My boyfriend has been working on starting his own business during the past 2.5 years that we've dated. He's never made as much money as I have, and is currently contemplating going back to school to get a Ph.D. I'm 100% supportive of his choices, as long as they make him happy.
    And its great that this is happening more and more these days, but is the exception far more than the rule. And many times that this exception is happening its because subconsiously, or even consiously, the man is striving to reach that point where rather than being taken care of THEY are now being the providers.


    I agree, and I am frustrated that so many women still cling to out-dated

    I understand that. I get tired of such men attacking us because we dared to have freedoms that they haven't dared to attain.
    Here's the thing. You have to look at the root of the feminist movement. It's initial goal or purpose was not to make gender roles ambiguous or provide for women entering more into the work force, it was primarily about the right to vote. There was a legitimate, unquestionable, wrong that was being faught against.

    There is not one of those present for males, which is why there is no great coilition formed. There was no original rallying point. Feminism as it is now and in recent decades is the left over of a movement that a legitimate wrong that needed righting, and after that was completed, did was all movements do....tries to maintain by finding a new issue to slam their already established membership against. I'm leery in part of any movement, even the Tea Party movement, because movements by their very nature never have a final point because those in power realize that to keep that power, to keep that influence, and to USE that influence, once you "succeed" once you need a new goal.

    Feminism would've likely never taken off to the extent it did if it was not for the Womans Suffrage movement. It was through that movement that the foundation was laid for everything after it. Without it the move forward would've been much more unsteady and much more slow going. A Large majority of women may not want to go into the work force. A large majority of women may not want ambigous gender roles. A large majority of women may not want men to stop being the providers. But without question a large majority of women wanted the right to vote, and that uniting ideal is what let the foundation be put in place.

    Its not that men don't want to dare to attain it. Its that there's not a big enough singular issue that can get the majority of males on board to create such a coilition as would be necessary for such a thing.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    ideas such as expecting an expensive engagement ring that is equal to 2 months of a guy's salary (seriously? How stupid) and expecting guys to always pay.

    My boyfriend and I split the check on our first date and have continued to do so. To do otherwise would be completely hypocritical.
    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post

    QFT

    This brings back memories of when I got engaged to my ex. We'd gone and picked out our rings together. I have small hands and a huge rock would just look gaudy, so I chose a small, but elegant, ring with a 1/10 carat diamond. In fact, all three rings together didn't come close to even one month of his salary at the time. When one of his relatives saw it for the first time, she actually asked me if I was disappointed.

    I just stared at her for a minute and said, "I picked it out. Should I be disappointed?"
    This is actually the case with me and my fiance. She doesn't normally wear rings, finding she always would catch them on something and end up taking them off and leaving them somewhere. She wanted something small, and saw a little heart shaped promise ring with 1/10 of a carat worth of diamonds lining around the edge. I'm a bit of a traditionalist and wanted a middle stone and ended up finding a really pretty ring that was a similar style to what she had liked, but also had a stone in the middle (and up to 1/6th of a carat). The ring was only $149 but it was the one she wanted, without question. There was definitely that twinge of "This is wrong" when I purchased it, and whne I got it, because despite it being a very pretty ring and exactly what she wanted there's that standard that males are given from an early age of what they're supposed to do for an engagement ring and the whole "big rock" stereotype. But she loved it and wears it daily without the need to keep taking it off all the time, and ultimately that's what matters.

    And yeah Catz, my gf let me pay for the first date and then when I tried to do it the next time she said "Nope, my turn". We've taken turns ever since.

  7. #37
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    That's simply ridiculous. We have breasts, that doesn't make us more emotionally capable of nurturing than men. But of course, espousing this perspective is a handy con that allows someone to be a kept woman who doesn't have to work for a living.
    You also carry the baby inside you for 9 months. This allows women to bond with the children long before the men. It makes a huge difference.

    A man can never know child birth, feeding from the bosom etc.

    Females are wired very differently from men chemically, and this does make a huge difference.

    Look at the nature of violent crime statistics between men and women. Men are much more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than a female. Women tend to be aggressive in very different ways then men. We are not the same, and designed by nature for very different roles.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Its really neither here nor there. There are some raised with healthy traditional values regarding roles, respect, family, etc. Those people typically find partners with those same ideals and values and raise families in a fairly traditional way and everything is pretty much just fine. Others dont really have a great appreciation for 'traditional roles' and choose differently. And there are an awful lot of people that are just plain ol ****ed up and they tend to hook up with other plain ol ****ed up people and create ****ed up children...and those people are often looked at as the result of the offshoot of the feminism movement...

    I think what we have more often is probably more healthily defined as societal evolution. The 'feminist' movement was more a gathering of malcontented people pissed off about something (many of em not even sure what) who ended up burning their bras as rebellion against some form of opression. I suspect because of their more militant nature it brought the day to day injustices (traditional work-place roles, pay, etc) more rapidly to the forefront, but I also would bet those roles would have changed without a 'movement'.

    Maybe it would help if you more clearly defined what you mean. Do you mean "is having women NOT barefoot and pregnant a BAD thing"? Do you mean "because of the feminist movement men have abandoned 'traditional roles' roles"?

    I think anything followed by a 'movement' eventually leaves something you have to clean up...

  9. #39
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    That's simply ridiculous. We have breasts, that doesn't make us more emotionally capable of nurturing than men. But of course, espousing this perspective is a handy con that allows someone to be a kept woman who doesn't have to work for a living.
    Take away the human tendencies...we see the same phenomenon in most of the animal world...the mothers (females) are more inclined to care and nurture than the males. I dont think the notion that females are better equipped to nurture is all that far fetched. I also dont believe it absolves men of the responsibility to bond and learn to nurture.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Take away the human tendencies...we see the same phenomenon in most of the animal world...the mothers (females) are more inclined to care and nurture than the males. I dont think the notion that females are better equipped to nurture is all that far fetched. I also dont believe it absolves men of the responsibility to bond and learn to nurture.
    Penguins. Men also have breasts that can lactate, given the right combination of hormones.

    I think there is a societal expectation that women SHOULD feel immediately bonded to their offspring. I would say that a lot of us don't, and wonder what in the hell is wrong with us, but we don't usually talk about it, because it ends up with us being labeled as frigid bitches.

    I love my kids. But, I like them a lot more as teenagers than I did when they were babies. I'm not a baby person, NOT AT ALL. I did not enjoy their baby years. In fact, I'd say that my ex was better with the kids when they were babies/toddlers than he is now. He has no idea how to parent teens.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-10-10 at 02:02 PM.

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