View Poll Results: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

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  • Yes, it was bad for America

    48 41.03%
  • No, it was good for America

    51 43.59%
  • A little bad and a little good. Overall it was neutral

    4 3.42%
  • A little bad and a little good. It changed a lot but not one way or the other.

    10 8.55%
  • Other...

    6 5.13%
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Thread: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

  1. #341
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    There's really no reason why this should be. I'd suspect it's more of a mindset thing. Parents pass on their lack of initiative to their children.
    A "mindset thing".
    There we go: more smug entitlement and judgementalism.
    Have you ever spent any time around people who grew up in generational poverty?
    Around children currently living in generational poverty?

    I watched a disadvantaged young mom reading a children's book to her four-year-old daughter the other day.
    She was doing the very best she could. She knows it is important to read to children. She wants her daughter to have a good life.
    She read the best she could, although her best was slow and halting. I would be willing to bet money nobody ever read to her. Her parents may not have known how to read. They undoubtedly didn't speak much English.
    So, she was reading to her daughter.
    She came to the word "scarce" in the story. Paused. Crinkled her forehead in confusion.
    Pronounced it, tentatively, "scars".
    She had never encountered the word. Nobody in her life had ever used it.
    She knew "scars" wasn't right, but she valiantly attempted to keep reading.
    A few pages later, she stumbled over another two-syllable word she'd never heard before. Then three more, in rapid succession.
    She was losing the gist of the story entirely. She began to sneer every time she encountered one of these weird words, waving the air with her hand as if waving nonsense away. He daughter, watching her, began to mimic her and do the same.
    Her daughter would not grow up to know or speak these words either.
    They would not be part of her world.

    To me, this anecdote really illustrates everything one needs to know about generational poverty.
    It's not material poverty; it's a poverty of the mind.
    Children raised in generational poverty don't have half the vocabulary of more affluent children when they start kindergarten. Right out of the starting gate, they're already disadvantaged, and it only gets worse.
    The teacher says words that she thinks every five-year-old, even an imbecile, should be able to understand.
    Children raised in generational poverty don't understand, though, because they've never heard them.
    They get more and more lost, fall further behind. Their self-esteem suffers.
    What good would it do to ask for help understanding a particular word, when they don't understand half of what the teacher says, when the teacher will probably just use more words they don't understand if they ask for an explanation?
    They could ask their parents, except their parents don't know these words, either.
    Maybe they're not important, since their parents, friends, and neighbors don't know them or use them.
    Soon, these children are sneering at the teacher and her stupid, crazy words, just like the young mother I described was sneering at that children's book she tried unsuccessfully to read to her daughter.
    By second or third grade, these children will probably have blocked out the stupid talk entirely. They sit in class zoning out, waiting to get old enough that they won't have to come to school anymore. School has nothing to do with their lives, and does nothing to prepare them for their futures.

    Anyway. That's what I've seen.
    That's one aspect of generational poverty.
    Some of them don't even understand us when we talk.... and I'm referring even to those for whom English is a first and only language.
    That's a pretty big disadvantage.
    Children not exposed to intellectual stimulation in their early years do not develop as many brain synapses.
    They will never catch up.
    Parents do the best they can, but they were likewise unexposed, and are likewise disadvantaged. And so on, and so on.
    Last edited by 1069; 05-15-10 at 08:35 PM.

  2. #342
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    A "mindset thing".
    There we go: more smug entitlement and judgementalism.
    Have you ever spent any time around people who grew up in generational poverty?
    Around children currently living in generational poverty?

    I watched a disadvantaged young mom reading a children's book to her four-year-old daughter the other day.
    She was doing the very best she could. She knows it is important to read to children. She wants her daughter to have a good life.
    She read the best she could, although her best was slow and halting. I would be willing to bet money nobody ever read to her. Her parents may not have known how to read. They undoubtedly didn't speak much English.
    So, she was reading to her daughter.
    She came to the word "scarce" in the story. Paused. Crinkled her forehead in confusion.
    Pronounced it, tentatively, "scars".
    She had never encountered the word. Nobody in her life had ever used it.
    She knew "scars" wasn't right, but she valiantly attempted to keep reading.
    A few pages later, she stumbled over another two-syllable word she'd never heard before. Then three more, in rapid succession.
    She was losing the gist of the story entirely. She began to sneer every time she encountered one of these weird words, waving the air with her hand as if waving nonsense away. He daughter, watching her, began to mimic her and do the same.
    Her daughter would not grow up to know or speak these words either.
    They would not be part of her world.

    To me, this anecdote really illustrates everything one needs to know about generational poverty.
    It's not material poverty; it's a poverty of the mind.
    Children raised in generational poverty don't have half the vocabulary of more affluent children when they start kindergarten. Right out of the starting gate, they're already disadvantaged, and it only gets worse.
    The teacher says words that she thinks every five-year-old, even an imbecile, should be able to understand.
    Children raised in generational poverty don't understand, though, because they've never heard them.
    They get more and more lost, fall further behind. Their self-esteem suffers.
    What good would it do to ask for help understanding a particular word, when they don't understand half of what the teacher says, when the teacher will probably just use more words they don't understand if they ask for an explanation?
    They could ask their parents, except their parents don't know these words, either.
    Maybe they're not important, since their parents, friends, and neighbors don't know them or use them.
    Soon, these children are sneering at the teacher and her stupid, crazy words, just like the young mother I described was sneering at that children's book she tried unsuccessfully to read to her daughter.
    By second or third grade, these children will probably have blocked out the stupid talk entirely. They sit in class zoning out, waiting to get old enough that they won't have to come to school anymore. School has nothing to do with their lives, and does nothing to prepare them for their futures.

    Anyway. That's what I've seen.
    That's one aspect of generational poverty.
    Some of them don't even understand us when we talk.... and I'm referring even to those for whom English is a first and only language.
    That's a pretty big disadvantage.
    Children not exposed to intellectual stimulation in their early years do not develop as many brain synapses. They will never catch up.
    Parents do the best they can, but they were likewise unexposed, and are likewise disadvantaged. And so on, and so on.
    Then we ought to teach the parents.

  3. #343
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Then we ought to teach the parents.
    They are products of generational poverty as well. As were their parents. As were theirs.
    That's why it's called "generational poverty".
    They did not develop these brain synapses as children. They will not likely be able to now.
    Perhaps an extraordinary few would.
    But that's the thing: it takes a very extraordinary person to overcome this sort of poverty.
    An ordinary person cannot do it.
    And let's face it: most of us are not extraordinary. We're merely ordinary.

    On the other hand, when you look at the children of the affluent, it takes extraordinary effort to fail, what with all the enrichment they're exposed to daily... which they've done nothing to deserve, I might add.

    I don't begrudge them what they have, not at all.
    It only bothers me when they whine about how the poor ought to just try harder, and then they could be just like us and have everything we have.
    This is not necessarily the case.
    The solution is not so simple.
    Last edited by 1069; 05-15-10 at 08:40 PM.

  4. #344
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    A "mindset thing".
    There we go: more smug entitlement and judgementalism.
    I'm not judging anyone, I don't feel entitled to anything, and what I meant was hardly any different from what you went on to say.

  5. #345
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    They did not develop these brain synapses as children. They will not likely be able to now.
    Sure they can. You can always learn. It takes exposure and effort. Finding the time in their day of working to raise a family and watching the kids is probably the biggest challenge.

    On the other hand, when you look at the children of the affluent, it takes extraordinary effort to fail, what with all the enrichment they're exposed to daily... which they've done nothing to deserve, I might add.

    I don't begrudge them what they have, not at all.
    What the **** is this "they've done nothing to deserve" nonsense? Are they supposed to have done something to be considered justly educated by being born to so called "affluent" family? My sister and husband both work and are not rich. They are educated. They are teaching their children to count and to read. Their children didn't have to do anything to "deserve" being in an educated household. That is just the way it is. It certainly sounds as if you "begrudge" them.


    It only bothers me when they whine about how the poor ought to just try harder, and then they could be just like us and have everything we have.
    The only solution to this problem is if the poor quit their whining and try harder and get educated.

  6. #346
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The only solution to this problem is if the poor quit their whining and try harder and get educated.
    Do you have any idea what it's like for a little kid growing up in an incredibly fragile and damaged home in a dangerous neighborhood, attending a failing school that is scary where the teachers don't give a ****?

    People who say these kinds of ignorant, self-satisfied, bull**** things piss me off more than I can even articulate.

    You wouldn't last a week in the shoes of that kid.

    I'm not a believer, but Jesus nailed this one:

    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

    "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

    "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

  7. #347
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Her daughter would not grow up to know or speak these words either.
    They would not be part of her world.
    I actually disagree, I think there is a chance the daughter grows up to know or speak those words. I actually think its a rather uplifting, if at points sad, story. As you said, the girls mother who is now reading to her daughter did not have the same happen to her. Despite the difficulty, despite the frustration, despite the fact that no...its not perfect...she is trying, doing her absolute best, because she knows its what's best for her daughter. That's heart warming and exactly the type of mindset we need. I'd take 100 mothers who have trouble reading to their children, but do it because they know its what will be best for their child, over 100 who just say screw it and sit them down in front of the TV.

    And you know what, if she's reading to her daughter because she knows its important, knows that her learning is important, and that she wants for her what she didn't have then my hope would be when the child's old enough to comprehend some things and not simply mimic the mother that she imparts to her daughter WHY she was doing it. The importance of education, the importance of reading, the importance of language, and why its so important to strive to be the best and to be better, to reach for better, than what those before her had.

    No, if her mother's caring for her like that...if her mothers thinking like you say she is...and making those efforts, I'd dare say there's a much better chance that that child WILL come to know those words and language as she grows in life far. A chance far, far better than for ones whose mothers do not make that extra effort, do not have the mindset that just because they didn't have it, or because its hard, or because its frustrating, that its not worth doing what they know is good for their child.

  8. #348
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Do you have any idea what it's like for a little kid growing up in an incredibly fragile and damaged home in a dangerous neighborhood, attending a failing school that is scary where the teachers don't give a ****?

    People who say these kinds of ignorant, self-satisfied, bull**** things piss me off more than I can even articulate.

    You wouldn't last a week in the shoes of that kid.

    I'm not a believer, but Jesus nailed this one:
    Bull****. Nobody can educate that child unless the child stops his bull**** and works hard to educate himself. Nothing I said implies we shouldn't help out where we can.

  9. #349
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Bull****. Nobody can educate that child unless the child stops his bull**** and works hard to educate himself. Nothing I said implies we shouldn't help out where we can.
    I think you are way oversimplifying the issue and speaking in absolutes.

    BTW, the rich also whine a lot. Look at the way BP is whining and finger pointing.

    "Personal responsibility" is a buzzword of the far right but when it comes to their own personal responsibility they have a double standard.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Bull****. Nobody can educate that child unless the child stops his bull**** and works hard to educate himself. Nothing I said implies we shouldn't help out where we can.
    Unless you want to see a socialist society happen, there will always be poor folks, regardless of their education and motivation. Eliminating that, unless a utopian society occurs would not be possible, and it is naive to think other wise. The objective would be to minimize the effects, not to eliminate.
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