View Poll Results: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

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  • Yes, it was bad for America

    48 41.03%
  • No, it was good for America

    51 43.59%
  • A little bad and a little good. Overall it was neutral

    4 3.42%
  • A little bad and a little good. It changed a lot but not one way or the other.

    10 8.55%
  • Other...

    6 5.13%
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Thread: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

  1. #21
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    For me, I will be grateful, forever, that my parents helped me go to college, get a degree, and a good job. When my ex-husband ended up being an abusive prick who went around sticking his dick in other women, instead of having to stay with him, suck it up, and take it, I was able to divorce him and take care of my kids on my own without us being in poverty.
    I'll take on the most emotionally charged portion of your post, Cat. It represents the good and the bad of feminism.

    The good is that you are able to be financially independent and get out of a bad marriage and raise your kids on your own.

    The bad is several fold.

    First, you had to raise your kids on their own without a male role model and a family role model (at least you haven't mentioned one). Statistics show that your kids are more likely to divorce themselves, perpetuating the destruction of traditional families.

    Secondly, your being an independent minded feminist may have contributed to the outcome of your marriage. If your husband was not able to deal with your non-traditional outlook, he may have become an abusive prick and stuck his dick in other women. These things do tend to take two to tango.

    Thirdly, the combination of financial independence and non-traditional roles by women have disrupted the traditional family. Divorce for much lessor reasons than yours occurs regularly. People get tired of each other and when marriage is no longer fun and games and the real work starts, people have an easier time of ignoring their vows and quitting on each other. This destabilizes a foundation stone in our society. Secondary effects of single parent families are stark.

    Lastly, the instability of the family causes women to have children out of wedlock. This perpetuates the problems.

  2. #22
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Feminism created two earner household which led to the housing bubble.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, we do. The equally ridiculous assumption held by many people, both male and female, is that its the man's duty to be the provider for the family. That the man should pay, ingrained at the earliest time from the man should be paying for the dates you go on and continuing outwards from that.
    For the record, it has always been my contention, here and elsewhere, that women should pay an equal share of the dating costs. I also find the tradition of the man buying an engagement ring (a costly and stupid tradition) to be equally out-dated.

    While I understand that women may feel the sting of the first traditional stereotype more and notice them more, trust me when I say the other view point is not vanished and gone from our society as well. This is both in how many women view a relationship situation, and how what society dictates and presents to you as you grow up as a male thus creating the mental belief that this is necessary and the many hangups guys have later in life when that does not become the case.

    I totally agree with you. I think that the pressure on men to provide financially is manifested in higher rates of heart disease and high stress levels. Feminism should have resulted in greater freedom for men and I have hopes that it ultimately will. Although, I freely admit that we haven't made as much progress, on either side, as I hoped we someday would.

    You rail against "men" for not getting on board. The difference is while there was the whole "women's liberation" thing and has been going on for some time, there's not really been that for males. While women now grow up far more likely to understand and find it relatively socially acceptable not to be the 50's stereotyped woman, its not nearly the same for a man. The notion of the stay at home dad is ridiculed. The guy that takes home-ec instead of woodshop has his masculinity questioned. The guy that brings home less money than his wife is made to feel a lesser. As a young male grows up his worth is still often taught as being measured by the means that he can protect and provide for his.
    Given that this seems to come from within the male peer culture, it isn't something that women can control, per se. I certainly have never cared how much money the guys I date make, all I've ever cared about was that they lived responsibly within their means.

    My boyfriend has been working on starting his own business during the past 2.5 years that we've dated. He's never made as much money as I have, and is currently contemplating going back to school to get a Ph.D. I'm 100% supportive of his choices, as long as they make him happy.

    I practice what I preach, and I preach just as much at my female peers as I do the males.

    I speak of course in generalities, and even that is begining to decline some in this age but only because what happened 40 years ago for females has started in the past 10 or 20 for males in regards to traditional social expectations.
    I agree, and I am frustrated that so many women still cling to out-dated ideas such as expecting an expensive engagement ring that is equal to 2 months of a guy's salary (seriously? How stupid) and expecting guys to always pay.

    My boyfriend and I split the check on our first date and have continued to do so. To do otherwise would be completely hypocritical.

    The women coming into their 20's now are the daughters of the women that were living and breathing the movement. This is not the case with the men coming into their 20's now. Those were men still raised with that notion that they're supposed to be the provider, the protector, the bread winner, the MAN in a family. To do otherwise requires the stripping down of years upon years of possible family and societal expectations built up within their mind.
    I understand that. I get tired of such men attacking us because we dared to have freedoms that they haven't dared to attain.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    I just see feminism as an aspect of humanism, myself.

    Anything that removes unnecessary societal restrictions is a good thing, IMO, as most of these are just social conventions that developed at at time when they might have served some function, but do not serve one now. Being locked into certain roles based on gender makes about as much sense as being locked into roles based on race or ethnicity to me, and what many people fail to realize is that the need for conformity affects BOTH sexes. Equality of the sexes allows both women AND men to escape some of the trappings associated with their gender.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    First, you had to raise your kids on their own without a male role model and a family role model (at least you haven't mentioned one). Statistics show that your kids are more likely to divorce themselves, perpetuating the destruction of traditional families.
    There is zero evidence that they wouldn't have felt that way already due to my ex's flagrant affairs. Kids who grow up in a family where dad is cheating and mistreating mom are likely to repeat those behaviors, as well. Which is worse?

    Secondly, your being an independent minded feminist may have contributed to the outcome of your marriage. If your husband was not able to deal with your non-traditional outlook, he may have become an abusive prick and stuck his dick in other women. These things do tend to take two to tango.
    I had little choice in the matter. When I was 8 months pregnant with my daughter, my ex quit his job. That was a pattern that continued during the life of our marriage. He had over 20 different jobs in 10 years. He usually could only hold a job down for a year or less.

    You can blame me for a lot, but had I been financially dependent on him, as a family, we'd have been screwed. I'd have liked to stay at home and take care of my kids, but that was never an option for me.

    I never cared how much money he made, I cared that he was responsible and steady. He wasn't. I didn't beat him up about it, but it caused significant stress in our marriage.

    I didn't start out as a ball-busting feminist, I was forced to work by necessity, and ended up being good at it. I didn't set out to emasculate him, if he felt unsuccessful professionally, that was largely a result of his own actions and choices.

    I still believe that he has untreated mental illness. However, he refuses to seek help, so there was very little I could do.

    My parents raised me that being a mother means doing what your family needs you to do. In my case, that meant earning a steady paycheck and ensuring we had groceries, a house to live in, clothes to wear, and health insurance coverage.

    However, the assumption that I'm somehow responsible is typical. He didn't fulfill his commmitments to the marriage, so that must have been my fault, somehow. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've heard that, especially from religious leaders.

    During this time period, I should note that he never expressed any resentment of my professional success, in fact, he told me that he was proud of me. And he happily spent the money I earned.

    The idea that you would use my story to attempt to cast aspersions on feminism in order to bolster your own paradigms is duly noted.

    Thirdly, the combination of financial independence and non-traditional roles by women have disrupted the traditional family. Divorce for much lessor reasons than yours occurs regularly. People get tired of each other and when marriage is no longer fun and games and the real work starts, people have an easier time of ignoring their vows and quitting on each other.
    These decisions are as often initiated by men as by women. This has little to do with feminism and everything to do with no-fault divorce laws. Please stop blaming the one on the other. The fact is that before feminism, men did this sort of thing to women routinely, and women had little recourse.

    Now you want to blame us for having options. I find that disingenous.

    This destabilizes a foundation stone in our society. Secondary effects of single parent families are stark.
    One stable single parent beats the hell out of kids growing up in a home with high levels of conflict and instability between the parents. Look it up.

    Let me say this again...I NEVER wanted to be divorced. I tried to make it work for 12 years. It was a MISERABLE life. I put up with it FOR MY KIDS. Finally, after his third affair, I thought, "What else am I teaching my kids by staying? Am I teaching my daughter that she doesn't have a right to be happy? Am I teaching my son to mistreat and abuse his own wife someday?"

    Funny how the opponents of feminism never seem to care about perpetuating THOSE lessons. It's all about trying to shame women for making choices to protect ourselves and our kids.

    Lastly, the instability of the family causes women to have children out of wedlock. This perpetuates the problems.
    Teen pregnancies are at their lowest levels since the 1950s. It's funny how your claims here have very little substantiation.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15835429/
    The birth rate among teenagers declined 2 percent in 2005, continuing a trend from the early 1990s. The rate is now about 40 births per 1,000 females ages 15 to 19. That is the lowest level in the 65 years for which a consistent series of rates is available.

    The U.S. teen birth rate is still the highest among industrialized countries.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-10-10 at 11:03 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I agree, and I am frustrated that so many women still cling to out-dated ideas such as expecting an expensive engagement ring that is equal to 2 months of a guy's salary (seriously? How stupid) and expecting guys to always pay.

    QFT

    This brings back memories of when I got engaged to my ex. We'd gone and picked out our rings together. I have small hands and a huge rock would just look gaudy, so I chose a small, but elegant, ring with a 1/10 carat diamond. In fact, all three rings together didn't come close to even one month of his salary at the time. When one of his relatives saw it for the first time, she actually asked me if I was disappointed.

    I just stared at her for a minute and said, "I picked it out. Should I be disappointed?"

    I thought it sad that she can only measure a man's love by how much he spends on her. I never respected her after that.





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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    I think the feminist movement started out great, and then became corrupted by the hard left who transformed it into a crazy PETA type of group. Honestly, I don't think they stand for real feminist values, they push for Democrat policies with partisan blinders on. Honestly I think it's a major problem when during the 2008 election they didn't support Sarah Palin and blatantly attacked her. Feminism in it's core beliefs is wonderful and I support it 100%. However, I am strongly against feminism as the hard left partisan dogma that it has evolved to become for many.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post

    QFT

    This brings back memories of when I got engaged to my ex. We'd gone and picked out our rings together. I have small hands and a huge rock would just look gaudy, so I chose a small, but elegant, ring with a 1/10 carat diamond. In fact, all three rings together didn't come close to even one month of his salary at the time. When one of his relatives saw it for the first time, she actually asked me if I was disappointed.

    I just stared at her for a minute and said, "I picked it out. Should I be disappointed?"

    I thought it sad that she can only measure a man's love by how much he spends on her. I never respected her after that.

    If J and I get married at some point, I hope we both go with tasteful gold or silver bands that match, and call it even. His will probably cost more than mine because his fingers are twice as big as mine.

    I would be perfectly happy with a claddagh or fede ring with no stone.

    I work primarily in inner city areas, so having a big rock would just be a reason for someone to rob me.

    p.s.

    The price for an engagement ring can vary considerably depending on the materials used, the design of the ring, whether it includes a gemstone, the value of any gemstone, and the seller. The idea that a man should spend two to three months' personal wages for an engagement ring originated from De Beers marketing materials in the early 20th century, in an effort to increase the sale of diamonds.[4] In 2007, the average cost of an engagement ring in USA as reported by the industry is $2100.[5]
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring]Engagement ring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

  9. #29
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Now is my chance to completely capitulate my ill informed arguments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    There is zero evidence that they wouldn't have felt that way already due to my ex's flagrant affairs. Kids who grow up in a family where dad is cheating and mistreating mom are likely to repeat those behaviors, as well. Which is worse?
    Very good point.

    I had little choice in the matter. When I was 8 months pregnant with my daughter, my ex quit his job. That was a pattern that continued during the life of our marriage. He had over 20 different jobs in 10 years. He usually could only hold a job down for a year or less.

    You can blame me for a lot, but had I been financially dependent on him, as a family, we'd have been screwed. I'd have liked to stay at home and take care of my kids, but that was never an option for me.

    I never cared how much money he made, I cared that he was responsible and steady. He wasn't. I didn't beat him up about it, but it caused significant stress in our marriage.

    I didn't start out as a ball-busting feminist, I was forced to work by necessity, and ended up being good at it. I didn't set out to emasculate him, if he felt unsuccessful professionally, that was largely a result of his own actions and choices.

    I still believe that he has untreated mental illness. However, he refuses to seek help, so there was very little I could do.

    My parents raised me that being a mother means doing what your family needs you to do. In my case, that meant earning a steady paycheck and ensuring we had groceries, a house to live in, clothes to wear, and health insurance coverage.

    However, the assumption that I'm somehow responsible is typical. He didn't fulfill his commmitments to the marriage, so that must have been my fault, somehow. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've heard that, especially from religious leaders.

    During this time period, I should note that he never expressed any resentment of my professional success, in fact, he told me that he was proud of me. And he happily spent the money I earned.

    The idea that you would use my story to attempt to cast aspersions on feminism in order to bolster your own paradigms is duly noted.
    Yikes! Glad you were able to get out of a bad situation. Your story underlines the good that came from feminism and the growth of female participation in the workforce. I fully believe that that is the case and I honor feminism for doing so. However, there are unintended consequences. Feminism may be the wrong place to lay blame, but if not feminism then feminism is a corollary effect.

    I am not saying the traditional family structure was perfect - far from it as women were trapped by their inability to survive independently. Single parent households carry their own damaging baggage. A new stable family structure has failed to appear. I believe that new family structure is the clan marriage.

    These decisions are as often initiated by men as by women. This has little to do with feminism and everything to do with no-fault divorce laws. Please stop blaming the one on the other. The fact is that before feminism, men did this sort of thing to women routinely, and women had little recourse.

    Now you want to blame us for having options. I find that disingenous.
    True enough. Personally, I will never get married so that I will never get divorced.


    One stable single parent beats the hell out of kids growing up in a home with high levels of conflict and instability between the parents. Look it up.
    Natch.

    Teen pregnancies are at their lowest levels since the 1950s. It's funny how your claims here have very little substantiation.

    Nearly 4 in 10 U.S. babies born out of wedlock - Pregnancy- msnbc.com
    Wow! This I did not know! Thanks.

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Feminism created two earner household which led to the housing bubble.
    Nonsense.

    Outsourcing of American jobs causing stagnating wages driven by multinational corporate greed caused the need for two income households.

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