View Poll Results: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

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  • Yes, it was bad for America

    48 41.03%
  • No, it was good for America

    51 43.59%
  • A little bad and a little good. Overall it was neutral

    4 3.42%
  • A little bad and a little good. It changed a lot but not one way or the other.

    10 8.55%
  • Other...

    6 5.13%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

  1. #101
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Good for women but bad for America?
    In the US, there are 97 men for each 100 women. ([ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio]see?[/ame]). What's good for women is good for America, unless men lose out by a greater amount than women gain. I don't think that's happened.

    EDIT: Also, a lot of what you lay at the feet of feminism is unlikely to be caused by it. Divorce rate in the US is much higher than in many of the more 'liberal' EU countries, where I'd say feminism is probably just as well founded/supported, if not more so.

    EDIT2: What \/they\/ said, only they said it betterer than me.
    Last edited by iangb; 05-12-10 at 01:07 PM.
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    Yes equality is a good thing. Are the bad things part of our current struggles, economic and societal?

    More women in the market place:
    Displaced men which forced more families to need 2 incomes.
    Increased the standard of living for a short period but then the increased competition eventually depressed wages.
    More and more Children ended up in the hands of babysitters or worse, home alone.
    Decline of the nuclear family.
    Divorce rate increase.
    Single parent increase.
    Birth rate:
    You blame all of these things on feminism, when in reality, many social changes occurred over the time time period that played a role. Major economic changes, a shift from a blue collar economy to an information/technology economy, and no-fault divorce laws.

    There is zero data that suggests that children raised in appropriate childcare settings are less emotionally stable or do less well in school than children who are parented at home. As long as that environment is stable, emotionally warm and supportive, and intellectually stimulating, children do equally well in the home or in a childcare setting.

    The increased standard of living has benefitted more children, to be frank.

  3. #103
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    So you're more for conformity than individual freedom?

    I'm not sure. Over all it seems like it might weight more heavily on being bad for America.

    Yes equality is a good thing. Are the bad things part of our current struggles, economic and societal?

    More women in the market place:
    Displaced men which forced more families to need 2 incomes.
    Increased the standard of living for a short period but then the increased competition eventually depressed wages.
    More and more Children ended up in the hands of babysitters or worse, home alone.
    Decline of the nuclear family.
    Divorce rate increase.
    Single parent increase.
    Birth rate lowered.

    The Pros:
    Women found more freedom.

    Result? Good for women but bad for America?
    Why do you blame all these things ON Women's Lib? There are many other factors that go into the reason for them being there.

    PART of the reason why Women's Lib as we know it was able to take root in it's finality was WWI - and it was furthered during WWII. Men weren't HERE to do all those jobs, women had to fill the role. The men, not only were they sent to fight the war for a few years - many never came back.

    We could keep going with that ball down the hill - cause and effect, cause and effect - it's an endless loop and if we were desperate enough we could trace the sociological norms all the way back to Ancient Greece if you so like.

    And what pipe is everyone smoking when they REALLY think that a MAN working in a factory was able to bring home enough of an income so his wife didn't HAVE to work in, say, 1850? The fact is that men working in a factory brought in more money than a working woman but it often wasn't enough to sustain a solid family with modern amenities.
    One fault HERE is that the modernization of the world brought more COST to the basics of living.

    (example) instead of a single person's working income just paying for: food, clothing, shelter. . . it had to, also, covered more taxes. It also covered more refined foods that were imported as people (men and women alike) developed more of an interest in eating beyond the garden or farm. Along with modernization came: cleaning products (essential for a clean home!), health and beauty products. Clothing started to cost more - education became more costly . . .and so on.

    The Industrial Revolution preceded our modern view of Women's Lib . . . and that can be traced back to when families *use* to live in homes that they built for themselves on the home front. Everything was done by HAND - hard labor for your family (men AND women shared the work on this) - the slow modernization of the world made it easier and easier to survive but it spiked the COST of living - you had to bring in FAR more money than someone 1,000 years ago could have dared to dream of ever SEEING.

    Corporate greed took over, they produced 50 and sold it for profit at a higher cost than what a single person might have been willing to sell the same handmade product for just 10 years earlier.

    Someone could live a satisfactory life 500 years ago - farming a field and selling that for a menial income, buy some seed - do it again. Could anyone do that NOW? YES!
    BUT people in the US would never DARE dream of doing that, now. That's "3rd world living" or even "redneck."

    Is this altered thought on how to live life, raise a family and the basic ideal of "having a home" purely because Women demanded that they be treated equally in the workforce? Of course not, don't be silly. Women's Lib finalized in our country LONG after the slow industrialization of the world altered the basic way in which we survive and exist.

    This isn't even related to "Women's Lib" - this is the snobery of a '1st class country' IMHO and almost everyone is guilty of it.

    Come on - I know a lot of you are smarter than *that* thinking.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-12-10 at 01:06 PM.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    See? No handcuffs necessary. You put the ring in your nose yourselves for a little white meat.
    Pink was the color I had in mind. But I didn't unzip my fly yet. Just a little tease to build up yer false confidence.
    "Don't be particular bout nothin, but the company you keep"

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    I'm not claiming causation and in fact if you look at my post again, without your panties all bunched up, you might see that I'm merely questioning correlation. I think I pretty clearly stated that I'm unsure of my position. So let's discuss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    You blame all of these things on feminism, when in reality, many social changes occurred over the time time period that played a role. Major economic changes, a shift from a blue collar economy to an information/technology economy, and no-fault divorce laws.
    What are those many social changes and what time period are you referring to?

    There is zero data that suggests that children raised in appropriate childcare settings are less emotionally stable or do less well in school than children who are parented at home. As long as that environment is stable, emotionally warm and supportive, and intellectually stimulating, children do equally well in the home or in a childcare setting.
    A couple of well placed caveats and the specious nature of your paragraph could almost go unnoticed.

    The increased standard of living has benefitted more children, to be frank.
    But the standard of living has been declining since the 80's, excluding the short lived tech bubble from 1996-1999

  6. #106
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I'm not claiming causation and in fact if you look at my post again, without your panties all bunched up, you might see that I'm merely questioning correlation. I think I pretty clearly stated that I'm unsure of my position. So let's discuss it.
    You actually stated:

    . . . I'm not sure. Over all it seems like it might weight more heavily on being bad for America.
    . . .
    More women in the market place:
    Displaced men which forced more families to need 2 incomes.
    Increased the standard of living for a short period but then the increased competition eventually depressed wages.
    More and more Children ended up in the hands of babysitters or worse, home alone.
    Decline of the nuclear family.
    Divorce rate increase.
    Single parent increase.
    Birth rate lowered.

    The Pros:
    Women found more freedom.

    Result? Good for women but bad for America?
    So, forgive both of us for noticing that you state that you're unsure but seem to come to some resolve after listing out the pros and cons: good for women but bad for America.

    But the standard of living has been declining since the 80's, excluding the short lived tech bubble from 1996-1999
    The standard of living has been declining? It depends on who you talk to and what you're talking about.

    My standard of living has only improved greatly.

    The tech bubble - sure, it had it's highest peak (job wise). But now the 'new' technology of that day has actually just become so readily available it's almost considered a 'right' by many, now.

    (The following isn't in direct response to you
    Why isn't the good-side being mentioned? Men aren't being cast with the harsh burden of being the sole breadwinner or support for a family. Isn't that a relief or a weight off the average man's shoulders?
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-12-10 at 04:09 PM.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    I'm not claiming causation and in fact if you look at my post again, without your panties all bunched up, you might see that I'm merely questioning correlation. I think I pretty clearly stated that I'm unsure of my position. So let's discuss it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Why do you blame all these things ON Women's Lib? There are many other factors that go into the reason for them being there.

    PART of the reason why Women's Lib as we know it was able to take root in it's finality was WWI - and it was furthered during WWII. Men weren't HERE to do all those jobs, women had to fill the role. The men, not only were they sent to fight the war for a few years - many never came back.
    Irrelevant to what has happened since the ERA.
    The vast majority of those women went back to being home makers after the war. So again, irrelevant.

    We could keep going with that ball down the hill - cause and effect, cause and effect - it's an endless loop and if we were desperate enough we could trace the sociological norms all the way back to Ancient Greece if you so like.
    Fallacious. Try and stay with the topic.

    And what pipe is everyone smoking when they REALLY think that a MAN working in a factory was able to bring home enough of an income so his wife didn't HAVE to work in, say, 1850? The fact is that men working in a factory brought in more money than a working woman but it often wasn't enough to sustain a solid family with modern amenities.

    One fault HERE is that the modernization of the world brought more COST to the basics of living.

    (example) instead of a single person's working income just paying for: food, clothing, shelter. . . it had to, also, covered more taxes. It also covered more refined foods that were imported as people (men and women alike) developed more of an interest in eating beyond the garden or farm. Along with modernization came: cleaning products (essential for a clean home!), health and beauty products. Clothing started to cost more - education became more costly . . .and so on.
    The correct question is WTF are you smoking? You seem to be woefully unaware of the society that I grew up in.

    The Industrial Revolution preceded our modern view of Women's Lib . . . and that can be traced back to when families *use* to live in homes that they built for themselves on the home front. Everything was done by HAND - hard labor for your family (men AND women shared the work on this) - the slow modernization of the world made it easier and easier to survive but it spiked the COST of living - you had to bring in FAR more money than someone 1,000 years ago could have dared to dream of ever SEEING.
    You really don't know what you are talking about.

    Corporate greed took over, they produced 50 and sold it for profit at a higher cost than what a single person might have been willing to sell the same handmade product for just 10 years earlier.
    The invention of the assembly line reduced the cost of goods. Corporate greed took over, this is true, but mass production isn't what raised prices. Simple Greed is what raised prices in most cases.

    Someone could live a satisfactory life 500 years ago - farming a field and selling that for a menial income, buy some seed - do it again. Could anyone do that NOW? YES!
    BUT people in the US would never DARE dream of doing that, now. That's "3rd world living" or even "redneck."
    Your time line is a bit off. The industrial revolution which started in the early 1800's didn't end our countries agrarian lifestyle until after WWI.

    Is this altered thought on how to live life, raise a family and the basic ideal of "having a home" purely because Women demanded that they be treated equally in the workforce? Of course not, don't be silly. Women's Lib finalized in our country LONG after the slow industrialization of the world altered the basic way in which we survive and exist.
    What altered thought are you referring to?

    This isn't even related to "Women's Lib" - this is the snobery of a '1st class country' IMHO and almost everyone is guilty of it.

    Come on - I know a lot of you are smarter than *that* thinking.
    I'm sorry if I seem perplexed by your post but it's really quite confusing.

  8. #108
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I'm not sure. Over all it seems like it might weight more heavily on being bad for America.

    Yes equality is a good thing. Are the bad things part of our current struggles, economic and societal?

    More women in the market place:
    Displaced men which forced more families to need 2 incomes.
    Increased the standard of living for a short period but then the increased competition eventually depressed wages.
    More and more Children ended up in the hands of babysitters or worse, home alone.
    Decline of the nuclear family.
    Divorce rate increase.
    Single parent increase.
    Birth rate lowered.

    The Pros:
    Women found more freedom.

    Result? Good for women but bad for America?
    D*mn, I think the world may be coming to an end when you and I agree on something.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  9. #109
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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    You actually stated:

    So, forgive both of us for noticing that you state that you're unsure but seem to come to some resolve after listing out the pros and cons: good for women but bad for America.
    Question marks indicate a question, not a statement.
    The standard of living has been declining? It depends on who you talk to and what you're talking about.
    You're right, if you ask the top 10% they will probably tell you their standard of living has been increasing. Try asking the other 90%.

    My standard of living has only improved greatly.
    Bully for you, I don't believe you represent the majority of the country.

    The tech bubble - sure, it had it's highest peak (job wise). But now the 'new' technology of that day has actually just become so readily available it's almost considered a 'right' by many, now.
    Meaning what?

    (The following isn't in direct response to you
    Why isn't the good-side being mentioned? Men aren't being cast with the harsh burden of being the sole breadwinner or support for a family. Isn't that a relief or a weight off the average man's shoulders?
    I understand.

    That might actually be a positive... if it weren't for the fact that the change in social order has changed faster than our social identities. Meaning, the pathology has occurred faster than our idea of our roles in society. Remember how there was a significant stigma surrounding "stay at home dads" for a long time (still persisting to a degree).

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    Re: Overall, was feminism bad for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    D*mn, I think the world may be coming to an end when you and I agree on something.
    Like most of us here at DP, we probably agree on more than we think. We just don't normally talk about all of those things.

    Besides, I'm not so sure if I'm right.

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