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Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

Is nationalism a good thing

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 34.9%

  • No

    Votes: 14 32.6%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 14 32.6%
  • Total voters
    43
  • Poll closed .
COD quote:

"Patriotism varies, from noble devotion to a moral lunacy"

W.R. Inge
 
I want nationalism- The new Americanism. One nation one voice one world to make in our image. To champion the causes of the underprivaleged and make justice and the rule of law our way of foregin affairs. Spreading the American high minded ideals to the world. Offering the new brand of Americanism to be shared and held with a sense of pride for everyone.
The first state in the new era of AMERICAN VALUES first an foremost is ARIZONA. Reaffirming our belief in self rule and dedicating this century
to those who come after us to carry on the, Great Experiment.
 
The Mark said:
I've been wondering though...which is better?

Or are both positive and/or negative, depending on the application?

Probably the last...
Click to expand...

Nationalism is automatically be a problem many times, because it connotes a negative idea.

Patriotism can be negative only if it is take too far, otherwise I embrace it every day.
 
b.larset said:
I want nationalism- The new Americanism. One nation one voice one world to make in our image. To champion the causes of the underprivaleged and make justice and the rule of law our way of foregin affairs. Spreading the American high minded ideals to the world. Offering the new brand of Americanism to be shared and held with a sense of pride for everyone.
The first state in the new era of AMERICAN VALUES first an foremost is ARIZONA. Reaffirming our belief in self rule and dedicating this century
to those who come after us to carry on the, Great Experiment.
Click to expand...

so you want an american empire?
 
b.larset said:
I want nationalism- The new Americanism. One nation one voice one world to make in our image. To champion the causes of the underprivaleged and make justice and the rule of law our way of foregin affairs. Spreading the American high minded ideals to the world. Offering the new brand of Americanism to be shared and held with a sense of pride for everyone.
The first state in the new era of AMERICAN VALUES first an foremost is ARIZONA. Reaffirming our belief in self rule and dedicating this century
to those who come after us to carry on the, Great Experiment.
Click to expand...

I know this is going to come as a shock, but your high minded American ideals are actually largely European (particularly British and French ideals).

You may want to look up the following:

Magna Carta - England - 1215
- Begins to establish that all men - including kings are equal under the law

Habeas Corpus Act - England - 1679
- Stengthens existing laws against unlawful detention that had been on English statute books for nearly 300 years

English Bill of Rights - England - 1689 (98 years before the US Constitution was signed)
- The American consitution is largely based on this document.

US Declaration of Independence - United States - 1776
- Incredibly beautiful document written largely by Thomas Jefferson.
- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
- No one notices the absurdity of using this sentence to declare independence for a country that has institutionalized slavery

US Constitution Ratified - United States - 1787?
- Another beautifully written document
- Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 institutionalizes the idea that all men are not created equal when it states that slaves only count as three fifths of a man when apportioning seats in the House of Representatives

The US has been telling everyone that it came up with the ideas of western democracy ever since. It didn't - it just had better marketing than the British

:)
 
I guess the main reason I dislike the notion of nationalism is that so many people throughout history have used to justify atrocity and war. I don't have a problem with people taking pride in one's country, but I do have a major problem of people thinking their country is better than others or the best for that reason.

However, when I really look at it, it becomes apparent to me that even the pride is silly, unless you as a person somehow had an effect on the state of the country.
 
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sh856531 said:
I know this is going to come as a shock, but your high minded American ideals are actually largely European (particularly British and French ideals).

You may want to look up the following:

Magna Carta - England - 1215
- Begins to establish that all men - including kings are equal under the law

Habeas Corpus Act - England - 1679
- Stengthens existing laws against unlawful detention that had been on English statute books for nearly 300 years

English Bill of Rights - England - 1689 (98 years before the US Constitution was signed)
- The American consitution is largely based on this document.

US Declaration of Independence - United States - 1776
- Incredibly beautiful document written largely by Thomas Jefferson.
- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
- No one notices the absurdity of using this sentence to declare independence for a country that has institutionalized slavery

US Constitution Ratified - United States - 1787?
- Another beautifully written document
- Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 institutionalizes the idea that all men are not created equal when it states that slaves only count as three fifths of a man when apportioning seats in the House of Representatives

The US has been telling everyone that it came up with the ideas of western democracy ever since. It didn't - it just had better marketing than the British

:)
Click to expand...

You forgot "The Rights Of Man from the French. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_Man_and_of_the_Citizen]Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
sh856531 said:
I know this is going to come as a shock, but your high minded American ideals are actually largely European (particularly British and French ideals).

You may want to look up the following:

Magna Carta - England - 1215
- Begins to establish that all men - including kings are equal under the law

Habeas Corpus Act - England - 1679
- Stengthens existing laws against unlawful detention that had been on English statute books for nearly 300 years

English Bill of Rights - England - 1689 (98 years before the US Constitution was signed)
- The American consitution is largely based on this document.

US Declaration of Independence - United States - 1776
- Incredibly beautiful document written largely by Thomas Jefferson.
- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
- No one notices the absurdity of using this sentence to declare independence for a country that has institutionalized slavery

US Constitution Ratified - United States - 1787?
- Another beautifully written document
- Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 institutionalizes the idea that all men are not created equal when it states that slaves only count as three fifths of a man when apportioning seats in the House of Representatives

The US has been telling everyone that it came up with the ideas of western democracy ever since. It didn't - it just had better marketing than the British

:)
Click to expand...

These documents describing the rights of the common citizen predated the US, but the English documents were in the context of a Monarchy and the French documents post-dated the Constitution. The US Constitution formed the first Republic that embodied these principles. So yes, the US was first.

Of course, the ideas were English and French, as the US was populated by colonists and settlers from Europe. We were primarily farmers with an education and so we stole the best ideas from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Paine...
 
Nationalism is basically tribalism at a larger scale. Humans still haven't gotten past the tendency to divide and then be suspicious of those of different divisions; but things are marginally better than they were before, I suppose.
 
Wow someone tainted this poll. 40+ votes overnight... I don't think so.

Clearly someone wanted everyone to think a huge majority think Nationalism is a good thing.
 
Look at the civil war, and the 2000 election. The election of The first Black American as Executive Branch Director of The United States Of America.
We are always reluctant to engage the Notion of our Collective endorsement of," The national Voice to bring us together in a unified and singular cause".

We can export this," working system of-" rule by your neighbor".
The control in the system will only become more," entrenched- and ours" with this ability and our tools of, politics, courts and our government and institutions both civic and religious; personal values and our family traditions and sense of justice and fairness.
The cause is now. The voice is yours.The way is forward.
AMERICANISM - the new hope for a great nation and their contribution to an ailing world.
 
reefedjib said:
These documents describing the rights of the common citizen predated the US, but the English documents were in the context of a Monarchy and the French documents post-dated the Constitution. The US Constitution formed the first Republic that embodied these principles. So yes, the US was first.

Of course, the ideas were English and French, as the US was populated by colonists and settlers from Europe. We were primarily farmers with an education and so we stole the best ideas from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Paine...
Click to expand...

I think we could probably argue this one back and forth forever :)

I think I could accept that the Americans were the first people to codify all the western ideals we take for granted in a single extremely well written document.

Having said that, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone pops along in a minute and proves that some cheeky nordic state beat us all to the punch.

For the UKs part, we still don't have a single document outlining our consititution - thats not to say that nearly all the elements of "American" ideals haven't been in place here for a very long time. We also still have a monarch - but I'm pretty sure that's just because she rakes in a few billion quid in tourism each year

;-)
 
reefedjib said:
These documents describing the rights of the common citizen predated the US, but the English documents were in the context of a Monarchy and the French documents post-dated the Constitution. The US Constitution formed the first Republic that embodied these principles. So yes, the US was first.

Of course, the ideas were English and French, as the US was populated by colonists and settlers from Europe. We were primarily farmers with an education and so we stole the best ideas from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Paine...
Click to expand...

Sorry for being so nitpicky but Paine was an American citizen of English decent.
 
sh856531 said:
I would have to say yes they do.

Do you think that France, the UK, Spain, Germany, Switzerland et al don't have millions of immigrants living in them?
Click to expand...

You avoided the point. A record 1,046,539 persons were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008. How many in those countries you mentioned? How many years would it take to equal one year for America? The number of immigrants that have America in their targets versus other nations are very lopsided. Since it is far easier to just cross borders into Europe to get to those "rich" nations, why do so many look to cross an ocean if it isn't "special?"



sh856531 said:
If anything, the US seems unusually paranoid and angry about immigration - which is odd, given that it was founded by immigrants from Europe fleeing persecution...
Click to expand...

You confuse legal immigration with illegal immigration. People all over the world save up, cross the ocean, and go through the process. The Irish, Italians, Poles, etc. have all gone through the process in mass over the centuries. Are Mexicans special? For too long illegal immigration form the south and wide open borders have been ignored. You want to come to live in America? Fine. Do it right like everybody else.

But immigrants into America have always sought out like people and had to go through the tribulations of assimilating. While being a subject to copy, it was never without imperfection. New York City has seen its bit of anger over immigrants over the centuries. Besides this, 9/11 was yet another turning point for America. Security is no longer a luxury that two oceans offer us. Our borders have become as important to us as the borders of nations across the sea have always been to them.
 
sh856531 said:
We were discussing this today in work.

We have a number of people at work who are very patriotic and nationalist. Almost to the point where they don't like foreign people working in our country.

We go to talking about nationalism and I've often thought that I can think of absolutely no positive aspects of patriotism and nationalism.

The way I see it, nationalism divides people who could otherwise be friends and colleagues and prevents us being greater than the sum of our parts.

Are there any undeniably positive aspects of nationalism?
Click to expand...

Nationalism is good for the nation and personal self-esteem and bad for the soul.
 
spud_meister said:
so you want an american empire?
Click to expand...

Welcome to "Mcworld." Whether people want it or not, they have been inviting it for decades. No matter their flag or culture, you will find Americanism throughout it. Our economy was the subject of copy after WWII. Hollywood influenced every corner of the world. Our drive to succeed gravitated many nations to our table.

Some people call this "empire." I call it global progress.
 
sh856531 said:
I know this is going to come as a shock, but your high minded American ideals are actually largely European (particularly British and French ideals).

You may want to look up the following:

Magna Carta - England - 1215
- Begins to establish that all men - including kings are equal under the law

Habeas Corpus Act - England - 1679
- Stengthens existing laws against unlawful detention that had been on English statute books for nearly 300 years

English Bill of Rights - England - 1689 (98 years before the US Constitution was signed)
- The American consitution is largely based on this document.

US Declaration of Independence - United States - 1776
- Incredibly beautiful document written largely by Thomas Jefferson.
- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
- No one notices the absurdity of using this sentence to declare independence for a country that has institutionalized slavery

US Constitution Ratified - United States - 1787?
- Another beautifully written document
- Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 institutionalizes the idea that all men are not created equal when it states that slaves only count as three fifths of a man when apportioning seats in the House of Representatives

The US has been telling everyone that it came up with the ideas of western democracy ever since. It didn't - it just had better marketing than the British

:)
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the U.S. hasn't told anybody that it invented these things. We are merely accused of it because we have pride in our nation for what it is. Somehow this threatens others so they criticize and accuse. What the US had done, though, was expound on them, made them more than ink on paper, and lived up to them. It was our sense of morality and determination to realize the dream after 1775 that Europeans began to see as a model for what it could not do for itself.

You stated it yourself. Europeans fled European nations for a reason. Was it because the British Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights were in effect or was it because the American Declaration of Independance was in effect? You also stated the immigrants go to "rich" nations as if this was the key factor. Yet, European nations were the rich back then. Nothing has changed. They come here for a reason.

It helps to think about why so many freak the hell out anytime America steps out of line or stumbles. Given that the other side has defined and perfected human misery and genocide down through even recent history, one must entertain the notion that since America is what it is, our stumbles let the world down.

Just a thought. I have many.
 
Orion said:
Nationalism is basically tribalism at a larger scale. Humans still haven't gotten past the tendency to divide and then be suspicious of those of different divisions; but things are marginally better than they were before, I suppose.
Click to expand...

This isn't true at all. America is a culmination of cultures and has proven that nationalism can transcend tribe. Because of our historical cultural creation (which continues to create), our nationalism has a far more healthier face than say a nation like Germany or Iran or Russia. Our diversity makes it incredibly hard to hate or to look down upon other nations. If America had seen an Arab immigration wave like it did the Irish, Italians and others, I would venture to say that Saudi Arabia would not be the scorn of a country it is to us today.

It's our history of immigration welcoming that has made us what we are. One should think about all those countries (even European) that spent far too much time ethnically cleansing their populations from time to time down through history and what the result of that has been for them.
 
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LiberalAvenger said:
You forgot "The Rights Of Man from the French. Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

This is another well intended document out of Europe that meant little until America became the model to follow. Soon after the French Revolution began and this document was put to paper, they elected Napolean. He would go on to crown himself Emporer and terrorize most of Europe. So much for "The Rights of Man." It was placed on hold for decades until a more convenient time....long after Americans were capturing the essence of European ideals and the American Declaration of Independance.

No matter the scenario and despite the world's fickle teenage girl attitude towards America, we have been the model to emulate on just about every level since 1776. Many Europeans know it, but refuse to admit it. Most Americans know it, but are scared to be accused of being "arrogant" and thinking that they are special.
 
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sh856531 said:
Having said that, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone pops along in a minute and proves that some cheeky nordic state beat us all to the punch.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but who in the world knows or cares? It's the American ideal since 1776 that has been the global focus for opportunity, success, and peace. Not France, not Britain, and certainly no unknown Nordic state. This is why our stumbles and imperfections seem to hurt their feeling so much.

I believe the current general attitude amongst Americans who think of the world outside our borders is "**** you world." Our most peaceful time was when we were isolationalists and kept the world at an arms distance. Our most devistating periods have all come from when we've had to cross the ocean to deal with messes others couldn't fix on their own. After one World War, we turned our backs on Europe's League of Nations thinking the last two years had been an exception in our policies. World War II proved that staying out of their messes only encourages far more American deaths later. And struggling through a Cold War with an enemy who held no value in good morality meant denting our own. Our government flirted with the sigh of exhaustion after 1989 thinking that our mission across the ocean to secure American security had come to an end. President tried in vain to get Europe to deal with Bosnia and Kosovo on their own. 9/11 (and being left to deal with a Middle East largely alone) changed it all. In Afghanistan, the greatest deaths by far are all from English speaking nations - America, Britain, and Canada in that order. **** you world.
 
Well nationalism is very different to patrioitism.
 
Cilogy said:
Nationalism is automatically be a problem many times, because it connotes a negative idea.

Patriotism can be negative only if it is take too far, otherwise I embrace it every day.
Click to expand...
I think both fall under the "negative if taken too far" statement.

It may be easier to take nationalism too far, as opposed to patriotism.

As to nationalism connoting (is that a word?) a negative idea…How, exactly, is this the case?
 
As to nationalism connoting (is that a word?) a negative idea…How, exactly, is this the case?
Click to expand...
What I mean is that when it is compared to patriotism, it comes off as more "standoffish."

Patriotism concerns devotion to one's nation, while nationalism concerns devotion to one's nation implying superiority over other nations.

I guess nationalism might be applicable in some cases, but in an ideal world, its nice to think that everyone should be worried about patriotism only.

Although, many people ignorantly confuse the two.

Also, connotes.
 
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