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Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

Is nationalism a good thing

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 34.9%
  • No

    Votes: 14 32.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 14 32.6%

  • Total voters
    43
  • Poll closed .

sh856531

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We were discussing this today in work.

We have a number of people at work who are very patriotic and nationalist. Almost to the point where they don't like foreign people working in our country.

We go to talking about nationalism and I've often thought that I can think of absolutely no positive aspects of patriotism and nationalism.

The way I see it, nationalism divides people who could otherwise be friends and colleagues and prevents us being greater than the sum of our parts.

Are there any undeniably positive aspects of nationalism?
 
There is use in supporting a nation because it affords you protection and the basis of a civil society. But that is the only reason I can think of.

I think there are many who take it too far though.
 
The reason I think Nationalism is bad is because it makes people think they are better than everyone else, even without fully understanding other countries and their cultures or policies. We have our faults in the U.S. just like any other country. I would argue that no one country is better than all others. Some are worse than others... but no single one is the best.
 
The problem is extremism(along with ignorance and fear), not nationalism - a shot of this is good, but this should never stand in the way of doing things better, this is where we need a ton of work.
Patriotism should never impede progress.
 
We were discussing this today in work.

We have a number of people at work who are very patriotic and nationalist. Almost to the point where they don't like foreign people working in our country.

We go to talking about nationalism and I've often thought that I can think of absolutely no positive aspects of patriotism and nationalism.

The way I see it, nationalism divides people who could otherwise be friends and colleagues and prevents us being greater than the sum of our parts.

Are there any undeniably positive aspects of nationalism?

I think nationalism/patriotism is a good thing. If our politicians were actually nationalist/patriotic they wouldn't have allowed American companies to outsource( therefore since they outsourced they are no longer American companies), they would secured the border, they would have not allowed foreign countries and companies to run our ports, they would not be giving away billions of our dollars to other countries or trying to trample on the rights of American citizens, they most certainly would not tolerate American companies hiring illegals. So mostly its just used as a tool by politicians who sneer at Obama because he didn't wear a flag pin, did not place his hand over his heart when the US national anthem was played or said that everyone should learn Spanish while they themselves support open borders, outsourcing, allowing foreign companies and countries to run our ports, and giving billions of US dollars to foreign countries. You can't be patriotic/nationalist and a globalist at the same time,those things contradict each other.
 
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There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country and proud to be from your country. Obviously, some people can get carried away with the concept.

 

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country and proud to be from your country. Obviously, some people can get carried away with the concept.


Very right. The only problem is when that pride leads to feelings of overall superiority.
 
I think nationalism is a good thing, but only when it's out of a healthy sense of pride and respect for the nation. Nationalism can (and often does) lead to arrogance that just ticks others off. I think America needs more national pride and less of this apologizing to the world garbage. But at the same time we don't need to have the same level of nationalism that far-right wingnuts have with the whole "Amurikka!!! F*CK YEAH!!!" That stuff is just annoying.
 
So far as history can tell us, the societal construct we percieve as a "Nation-State" has been integral to organizing populances and developing all manners of accomplishments. This, like all benefits, has come with gigantic costs and one could wonder if these costs have been "worth it." However, looking at the world today (past and present), I cannot go as far to say that it is so horrible the world must be so completely restructured to obliterate nations. There is up's, and there are down's yet I like it through and through.
 
Patriotism is love of your own country. Nationalism is hatred of all others.

One is good. One is bad. 1930s Germany, Stalinist Russia, and the Khmer Rouge are all examples of nationalism at a large level.
 
Patriotism is love of your own country. Nationalism is hatred of all others.

One is good. One is bad. 1930s Germany, Stalinist Russia, and the Khmer Rouge are all examples of nationalism at a large level.

Actually nationalism doesn't have anything to do with hatred of other countries.
nationalism - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education
# 1.

Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2.

The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3.

Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.
 
I'm glad to be American, and I'm statistically lucky to be American, but I didn't choose it, why would I be proud of it? Pride is for things we earn and accomplish, not where my mom happened to be when I was born
 
Patriotism is love of your own country. Nationalism is hatred of all others.

One is good. One is bad. 1930s Germany, Stalinist Russia, and the Khmer Rouge are all examples of nationalism at a large level.
I think those are bad examples of nationalism.

Nationalism in itself is not bad, but it obviously can be taken to extremes, as anything can be.

Like several have already stated, a small dose of nationalism is good, but too much is bad.

Putting your country before others in your decisions is only reasonable, as it is that which provides the environment which you live in (well, depending).

But if you take it too far and actively work to harm other countries to forward your own…

You see my point?
 
The problem is extremism(along with ignorance and fear), not nationalism - a shot of this is good, but this should never stand in the way of doing things better, this is where we need a ton of work.
Patriotism should never impede progress.

The problem is that people confuse patriotism with nationalism.
 
The problem is that people confuse patriotism with nationalism.
I've been wondering though...which is better?

Or are both positive and/or negative, depending on the application?

Probably the last...
 
Nationalism has only proven to be a problem in one situation.
 
I'm glad to be American, and I'm statistically lucky to be American, but I didn't choose it, why would I be proud of it? Pride is for things we earn and accomplish, not where my mom happened to be when I was born

You can just happen to be a citizen in North Korea or Saudi Arabia. See how different your tune would be.

You should be proud because of the civilization you belong to and the contribution opportunities afforded to you to make it greater. How many opportunities do people have in other civilizations and societies to make their individual station and nation better? Dismissing American birth as a trivial luxury is invoked because you know it can't be changed. Be above the philosophical BS and figure out what your nation's existence has meant to the world and to what it means to you personally.
 
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Nationalism is a good thing. People talk about patriotism and nationalism as if they're just symbols-- stars and stripes and eagles-- but it runs deeper. In a very real and fundamental sense, those are your people. You share a language and a culture and a history. These things are a part of you, and if you aren't proud of that, how can you take any pride in yourself and your own accomplishments?

Human beings do not stand alone. They are a part of groups, of families and communities. A human being that is not part of something larger than himself is not truly human.
 
There is a very thin line between nationalism and patriotism. Sometimes it's hard to tell them apart.
 
Nationalism is a good thing. People talk about patriotism and nationalism as if they're just symbols-- stars and stripes and eagles-- but it runs deeper.


Absolutely. I don't understand people who claim to find no pride in being an American. There are literally tens of thousands of people that save up and travel to America to make it their new home every year. Is it the same for other nations? Do they save up to move to China or the Middle East or South America or even Europe in the same manner that they do for America? Obviously foreigners see something from the outside that some Americans can't see from the inside (it's taken for granted).

They come for a reason. They come because they are seeking a better life for their families and to provide their children with opportunities. They do this because only in America will you find so many religions and cultures free to explore and celebrate without persecution or malice. Considering history's empires, only America has found a way to balance almost absolute power with morality. We are not known for colonialism. We are not known for starting World Wars. In fact, if we take a greater look at our history, we are actually known as the empire killer...

1) The British Empire: We drove out the greatest empire of the age to champion the political and economic rights of man. A second war with them confirmed their relegation to the Canadian borders.

2) The Mexican Empire: We cut them in half before we fought our own Civil War, which was an internal purge or cleansing from the last European notions of hereditary authority and human subjugation (though Europeans refuse responsibility).

3) The Spanish Empire: The Spanish-American War was our first time venturing out into the world and the first time we defeated a European empire and destroyed it. This also marked our first war against an "evil empire." Spain's treatment of Cubans both moved us and gave us an excuse to grasp its treasures. It proved an addictive model, because this is also where we dabbled a little in the European colonial game as we set up camp in former Spanish colonies (Philippines, Guam, Cuba, Puerto Rico).

4) First World War: This internal European feud weakened Europe's remaining empires while spawning new ones. Our late entry didn't win the war, but it damn sure prevented the allies from losing. Germany's Second Reich, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire went down.

5) Second World War: Though it is fashionable to deny America credit, it was us that saved the world from unspeakable tyranny. For all the valor of crumpled Britain and agonized Russia, the U.S. decided the outcome. We destroyed the Japanese Empire and greatly influenced the destruction of Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. The French (which needed liberating from its own Nazi collaborators) and British Empires both collapsed of their own weight after the war. In 1945 we found ourselves the stewards of a world we hardly knew and only the "Soviets" remained strong.

6) Cold War: Given our unfamiliar station in the world, it should not be suprising that we made mistakes, but that we actually made so few. Beating the Soviet Empire at their own dictator game was hard on our values (of which we are hypocritically reminded of often by Europe). This was an age of paradox and moral erosion (at least for America) overshadowed by the threat of nuclear holocaust. We wound up maintaining European creations throughout the war for stability against an enemy that would control them and use them (and their resources) against us.

That's 9 empires America took down, helped take down, or bypassed as they buckled under their own or each other's pressures. The few remaining were Portuguese, Dutch, and Belgian and they simply died of decay. People don't really think about this, but 1989 marked something wonderful. It didn't just end half a century of nuclear Cold War. It marked the end of a longer struggle. Those who believed that man should govern himself from below defeated those who believed that man must be governed from above. The kings, kaisers, and czars that slashed lines across maps and engineered a fractured world with crayolas were gone. Man's entire previous history of governance had finally come to a close. The future belongs to citizens who control their own goverments. We did this. Not the French who spawned their internal Revolution while celebrating the continued colonization of the world. Not the Germans who's love affair for dictators had a hard time turing the corner. Not the British who was key in screwing up the Middle East. Us. It was a 250 year epoch for which we were the key player. Today, we find ourselves without a clearly defined mission, but there are missions.

Along the way we managed to free our own slaves, create the car, march for civil rights, and go to the moon. Today we find ourselves without an empire to compete with. Now we can concentrate on repairing our morals and values and project that out into the world with greater focus while dealing with the social decay of former Cold War global scars (something our allies would rather pretend isn't their problem).

This has been our history. While our role has largely been about our security, our sense of values and morality has created an environment that steers the world away from tyranny. Therefore, what we do for ourselves benefits hundreds of millions of people outside our borders (for which gets dismissed far often than not by our critics). A perfect example of this would be the Barbary Pirates Wars which not only freed the Mediteranean Sea for our safe passage, but freed it up for those European powers who preferred to pay ransmom and bribes. People tend to focus on whatever will describe America as imperfect, but they focus on the exceptions. There's a reason for this. One, since we have been so extremely successful in our extremely young age, there is a sense of resentment and jealousy that comes from the former empires (especially from those we took down or had to liberate.) Two, because our critic's own histories have perfected ethnic cleansing, genocide, and global calamity, they must take chinks out of the armor of someone else if only to preserve a sense of pride. And three, since we are arrogant (with cause), we have to be reminded that we do make mistakes. Fortunately, our mistakes haven't walked the world into global catastrophe yet, but we have made our mistakes. Europeans are rather fond of reminding us about the Native American, no matter how many genocides and ethnic cleansing adventures they orchestrated internally and externally. We should remind them that it was them that brought the institution of slavery and the program of native slaughter to our shores. But we are responsible for what we did after 1775. We accept it. We address it. And we have become better for it whereas our critics seem to have had to rinse and repeat... rinse and repeat... rinse and repeat.

I bring up our critics because it is their criticisms that seem to ring in the ears of those Americans who can't figure out why they should have pride in their country. The question to ask is why do our critics find it important to remove American pride from Americans. And why Americans are so easily swayed by the exceptions no matter how minor they are in comparison to what our critics have done. Our history, on every level, is something to be proud about because it not only made us powerful, but it has been the greatest force for positive change in history.

We should all be proud in knowing that our nation provides us the individual opportunities to do even greater, not just for ourselves, but for everyone.
 
...A very nice and inspiring post, but no need to extend the text wall...
Trouble is, I get the distinct impression that we have many here in the USA (and probably in other countries) who want top down rule (or something close to it) again.

For their own gain or just because they are misguided.

Perhaps I'm just cynical.
 
america!

fuck yeah!!!
 
There are literally tens of thousands of people that save up and travel to America to make it their new home every year. Is it the same for other nations? Do they save up to move to China or the Middle East or South America or even Europe in the same manner that they do for America?

I would have to say yes they do.

Do you think that France, the UK, Spain, Germany, Switzerland et al don't have millions of immigrants living in them?

People tend to want to live in the richest and most advanced countries in the world. The US is not special in this regard. If anything, the US seems unusually paranoid and angry about immigration - which is odd, given that it was founded by immigrants from Europe fleeing persecution...
 
They come for a reason. They come because they are seeking a better life for their families and to provide their children with opportunities. They do this because only in America will you find so many religions and cultures free to explore and celebrate without persecution or malice.

This is why I don't like nationalism - lots of unsupported nonsense about one country being uniquely superior to all others.

There are scores of measures that various international bodies use to measure countries against one another. This may come as a shock to you but the countries that tend to come top in measurements such as the Human Development Index, Democracy Index, Child Welfare Index, GDP Per Capita, and the WHO healthcare rankings all tend to be not the United States.

I like many things about America. My wife and family are American. But your typically American answer is near word perfect demonstration of why I don't like nationalism. It promotes an at times rabid desire to demonstrate that ones country is better than all other countries and is always devoid of fact or reason.

Best Regards

S
 
One thing that struck me reading this thread was, of all the people who said that patriotisim/nationalism is, or could be a good thing - only one person actually gave a reason why.

The rest of the answers were along the lines of "I think patriotism is good - because I like it"....

:-|
 
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