View Poll Results: Is nationalism a good thing

Voters
91. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    52 57.14%
  • No

    24 26.37%
  • Maybe

    15 16.48%
Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 62

Thread: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

  1. #41
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,976

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by sh856531 View Post
    I would have to say yes they do.

    Do you think that France, the UK, Spain, Germany, Switzerland et al don't have millions of immigrants living in them?
    You avoided the point. A record 1,046,539 persons were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008. How many in those countries you mentioned? How many years would it take to equal one year for America? The number of immigrants that have America in their targets versus other nations are very lopsided. Since it is far easier to just cross borders into Europe to get to those "rich" nations, why do so many look to cross an ocean if it isn't "special?"



    Quote Originally Posted by sh856531 View Post
    If anything, the US seems unusually paranoid and angry about immigration - which is odd, given that it was founded by immigrants from Europe fleeing persecution...
    You confuse legal immigration with illegal immigration. People all over the world save up, cross the ocean, and go through the process. The Irish, Italians, Poles, etc. have all gone through the process in mass over the centuries. Are Mexicans special? For too long illegal immigration form the south and wide open borders have been ignored. You want to come to live in America? Fine. Do it right like everybody else.

    But immigrants into America have always sought out like people and had to go through the tribulations of assimilating. While being a subject to copy, it was never without imperfection. New York City has seen its bit of anger over immigrants over the centuries. Besides this, 9/11 was yet another turning point for America. Security is no longer a luxury that two oceans offer us. Our borders have become as important to us as the borders of nations across the sea have always been to them.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  2. #42
    Guru
    Morality Games's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Last Seen
    05-24-16 @ 10:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,733

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by sh856531 View Post
    We were discussing this today in work.

    We have a number of people at work who are very patriotic and nationalist. Almost to the point where they don't like foreign people working in our country.

    We go to talking about nationalism and I've often thought that I can think of absolutely no positive aspects of patriotism and nationalism.

    The way I see it, nationalism divides people who could otherwise be friends and colleagues and prevents us being greater than the sum of our parts.

    Are there any undeniably positive aspects of nationalism?
    Nationalism is good for the nation and personal self-esteem and bad for the soul.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  3. #43
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,976

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    so you want an american empire?
    Welcome to "Mcworld." Whether people want it or not, they have been inviting it for decades. No matter their flag or culture, you will find Americanism throughout it. Our economy was the subject of copy after WWII. Hollywood influenced every corner of the world. Our drive to succeed gravitated many nations to our table.

    Some people call this "empire." I call it global progress.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  4. #44
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,976

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by sh856531 View Post
    I know this is going to come as a shock, but your high minded American ideals are actually largely European (particularly British and French ideals).

    You may want to look up the following:

    Magna Carta - England - 1215
    - Begins to establish that all men - including kings are equal under the law

    Habeas Corpus Act - England - 1679
    - Stengthens existing laws against unlawful detention that had been on English statute books for nearly 300 years

    English Bill of Rights - England - 1689 (98 years before the US Constitution was signed)
    - The American consitution is largely based on this document.

    US Declaration of Independence - United States - 1776
    - Incredibly beautiful document written largely by Thomas Jefferson.
    - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
    - No one notices the absurdity of using this sentence to declare independence for a country that has institutionalized slavery

    US Constitution Ratified - United States - 1787?
    - Another beautifully written document
    - Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 institutionalizes the idea that all men are not created equal when it states that slaves only count as three fifths of a man when apportioning seats in the House of Representatives

    The US has been telling everyone that it came up with the ideas of western democracy ever since. It didn't - it just had better marketing than the British

    :-)
    I'm pretty sure the U.S. hasn't told anybody that it invented these things. We are merely accused of it because we have pride in our nation for what it is. Somehow this threatens others so they criticize and accuse. What the US had done, though, was expound on them, made them more than ink on paper, and lived up to them. It was our sense of morality and determination to realize the dream after 1775 that Europeans began to see as a model for what it could not do for itself.

    You stated it yourself. Europeans fled European nations for a reason. Was it because the British Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights were in effect or was it because the American Declaration of Independance was in effect? You also stated the immigrants go to "rich" nations as if this was the key factor. Yet, European nations were the rich back then. Nothing has changed. They come here for a reason.

    It helps to think about why so many freak the hell out anytime America steps out of line or stumbles. Given that the other side has defined and perfected human misery and genocide down through even recent history, one must entertain the notion that since America is what it is, our stumbles let the world down.

    Just a thought. I have many.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  5. #45
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,976

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Nationalism is basically tribalism at a larger scale. Humans still haven't gotten past the tendency to divide and then be suspicious of those of different divisions; but things are marginally better than they were before, I suppose.
    This isn't true at all. America is a culmination of cultures and has proven that nationalism can transcend tribe. Because of our historical cultural creation (which continues to create), our nationalism has a far more healthier face than say a nation like Germany or Iran or Russia. Our diversity makes it incredibly hard to hate or to look down upon other nations. If America had seen an Arab immigration wave like it did the Irish, Italians and others, I would venture to say that Saudi Arabia would not be the scorn of a country it is to us today.

    It's our history of immigration welcoming that has made us what we are. One should think about all those countries (even European) that spent far too much time ethnically cleansing their populations from time to time down through history and what the result of that has been for them.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-06-10 at 10:40 PM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  6. #46
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,976

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    This is another well intended document out of Europe that meant little until America became the model to follow. Soon after the French Revolution began and this document was put to paper, they elected Napolean. He would go on to crown himself Emporer and terrorize most of Europe. So much for "The Rights of Man." It was placed on hold for decades until a more convenient time....long after Americans were capturing the essence of European ideals and the American Declaration of Independance.

    No matter the scenario and despite the world's fickle teenage girl attitude towards America, we have been the model to emulate on just about every level since 1776. Many Europeans know it, but refuse to admit it. Most Americans know it, but are scared to be accused of being "arrogant" and thinking that they are special.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-06-10 at 10:43 PM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  7. #47
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,976

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by sh856531 View Post
    Having said that, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone pops along in a minute and proves that some cheeky nordic state beat us all to the punch.
    Yeah, but who in the world knows or cares? It's the American ideal since 1776 that has been the global focus for opportunity, success, and peace. Not France, not Britain, and certainly no unknown Nordic state. This is why our stumbles and imperfections seem to hurt their feeling so much.

    I believe the current general attitude amongst Americans who think of the world outside our borders is "**** you world." Our most peaceful time was when we were isolationalists and kept the world at an arms distance. Our most devistating periods have all come from when we've had to cross the ocean to deal with messes others couldn't fix on their own. After one World War, we turned our backs on Europe's League of Nations thinking the last two years had been an exception in our policies. World War II proved that staying out of their messes only encourages far more American deaths later. And struggling through a Cold War with an enemy who held no value in good morality meant denting our own. Our government flirted with the sigh of exhaustion after 1989 thinking that our mission across the ocean to secure American security had come to an end. President tried in vain to get Europe to deal with Bosnia and Kosovo on their own. 9/11 (and being left to deal with a Middle East largely alone) changed it all. In Afghanistan, the greatest deaths by far are all from English speaking nations - America, Britain, and Canada in that order. **** you world.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  8. #48
    blond bombshell

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    uk
    Last Seen
    10-19-12 @ 11:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    4,729

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Well nationalism is very different to patrioitism.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

  9. #49
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,736

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    Nationalism is automatically be a problem many times, because it connotes a negative idea.

    Patriotism can be negative only if it is take too far, otherwise I embrace it every day.
    I think both fall under the "negative if taken too far" statement.

    It may be easier to take nationalism too far, as opposed to patriotism.

    As to nationalism connoting (is that a word?) a negative idea…How, exactly, is this the case?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #50
    Pathetic Douchebag
    Cilogy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Last Seen
    10-10-14 @ 05:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,587

    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    As to nationalism connoting (is that a word?) a negative idea…How, exactly, is this the case?
    What I mean is that when it is compared to patriotism, it comes off as more "standoffish."

    Patriotism concerns devotion to one's nation, while nationalism concerns devotion to one's nation implying superiority over other nations.

    I guess nationalism might be applicable in some cases, but in an ideal world, its nice to think that everyone should be worried about patriotism only.

    Although, many people ignorantly confuse the two.

    Also, connotes.


Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •