View Poll Results: Is nationalism a good thing

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  • Yes

    52 57.14%
  • No

    24 26.37%
  • Maybe

    15 16.48%
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Thread: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

  1. #31
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    I guess the main reason I dislike the notion of nationalism is that so many people throughout history have used to justify atrocity and war. I don't have a problem with people taking pride in one's country, but I do have a major problem of people thinking their country is better than others or the best for that reason.

    However, when I really look at it, it becomes apparent to me that even the pride is silly, unless you as a person somehow had an effect on the state of the country.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 05-03-10 at 09:14 AM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by sh856531 View Post
    I know this is going to come as a shock, but your high minded American ideals are actually largely European (particularly British and French ideals).

    You may want to look up the following:

    Magna Carta - England - 1215
    - Begins to establish that all men - including kings are equal under the law

    Habeas Corpus Act - England - 1679
    - Stengthens existing laws against unlawful detention that had been on English statute books for nearly 300 years

    English Bill of Rights - England - 1689 (98 years before the US Constitution was signed)
    - The American consitution is largely based on this document.

    US Declaration of Independence - United States - 1776
    - Incredibly beautiful document written largely by Thomas Jefferson.
    - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
    - No one notices the absurdity of using this sentence to declare independence for a country that has institutionalized slavery

    US Constitution Ratified - United States - 1787?
    - Another beautifully written document
    - Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 institutionalizes the idea that all men are not created equal when it states that slaves only count as three fifths of a man when apportioning seats in the House of Representatives

    The US has been telling everyone that it came up with the ideas of western democracy ever since. It didn't - it just had better marketing than the British

    :-)
    You forgot "The Rights Of Man from the French. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_Man_and_of_the_Citize n]Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

  3. #33
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Cheers dude - I knew there were some equivelant documents from France just before the French revolution - but I couldn't remember their names...

  4. #34
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by sh856531 View Post
    I know this is going to come as a shock, but your high minded American ideals are actually largely European (particularly British and French ideals).

    You may want to look up the following:

    Magna Carta - England - 1215
    - Begins to establish that all men - including kings are equal under the law

    Habeas Corpus Act - England - 1679
    - Stengthens existing laws against unlawful detention that had been on English statute books for nearly 300 years

    English Bill of Rights - England - 1689 (98 years before the US Constitution was signed)
    - The American consitution is largely based on this document.

    US Declaration of Independence - United States - 1776
    - Incredibly beautiful document written largely by Thomas Jefferson.
    - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
    - No one notices the absurdity of using this sentence to declare independence for a country that has institutionalized slavery

    US Constitution Ratified - United States - 1787?
    - Another beautifully written document
    - Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 institutionalizes the idea that all men are not created equal when it states that slaves only count as three fifths of a man when apportioning seats in the House of Representatives

    The US has been telling everyone that it came up with the ideas of western democracy ever since. It didn't - it just had better marketing than the British

    :-)
    These documents describing the rights of the common citizen predated the US, but the English documents were in the context of a Monarchy and the French documents post-dated the Constitution. The US Constitution formed the first Republic that embodied these principles. So yes, the US was first.

    Of course, the ideas were English and French, as the US was populated by colonists and settlers from Europe. We were primarily farmers with an education and so we stole the best ideas from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Paine...

  5. #35
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Nationalism is basically tribalism at a larger scale. Humans still haven't gotten past the tendency to divide and then be suspicious of those of different divisions; but things are marginally better than they were before, I suppose.

  6. #36
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Wow someone tainted this poll. 40+ votes overnight... I don't think so.

    Clearly someone wanted everyone to think a huge majority think Nationalism is a good thing.

  7. #37
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Look at the civil war, and the 2000 election. The election of The first Black American as Executive Branch Director of The United States Of America.
    We are always reluctant to engage the Notion of our Collective endorsement of," The national Voice to bring us together in a unified and singular cause".

    We can export this," working system of-" rule by your neighbor".
    The control in the system will only become more," entrenched- and ours" with this ability and our tools of, politics, courts and our government and institutions both civic and religious; personal values and our family traditions and sense of justice and fairness.
    The cause is now. The voice is yours.The way is forward.
    AMERICANISM - the new hope for a great nation and their contribution to an ailing world.

  8. #38
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    These documents describing the rights of the common citizen predated the US, but the English documents were in the context of a Monarchy and the French documents post-dated the Constitution. The US Constitution formed the first Republic that embodied these principles. So yes, the US was first.

    Of course, the ideas were English and French, as the US was populated by colonists and settlers from Europe. We were primarily farmers with an education and so we stole the best ideas from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Paine...
    I think we could probably argue this one back and forth forever :-)

    I think I could accept that the Americans were the first people to codify all the western ideals we take for granted in a single extremely well written document.

    Having said that, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone pops along in a minute and proves that some cheeky nordic state beat us all to the punch.

    For the UKs part, we still don't have a single document outlining our consititution - thats not to say that nearly all the elements of "American" ideals haven't been in place here for a very long time. We also still have a monarch - but I'm pretty sure that's just because she rakes in a few billion quid in tourism each year

    ;-)

  9. #39
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by b.larset View Post
    AMERICANISM - the new hope for a great nation and their contribution to an ailing world.
    What are you gibbering about?

    :-|

  10. #40
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    Re: Is nationalism a good or a bad thing

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    These documents describing the rights of the common citizen predated the US, but the English documents were in the context of a Monarchy and the French documents post-dated the Constitution. The US Constitution formed the first Republic that embodied these principles. So yes, the US was first.

    Of course, the ideas were English and French, as the US was populated by colonists and settlers from Europe. We were primarily farmers with an education and so we stole the best ideas from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Paine...
    Sorry for being so nitpicky but Paine was an American citizen of English decent.

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