Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

Cilogy said:

So anyway, I have yet to hear someone answer the OP.

Is it right to stop gay marriage? Explain.

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The OP seems to assume that allowing gay marriage is the default, which I don't understand. We don't allow it now. We've never allowed it in the past. Marriage has, until very recently, been defined as an entirely heterosexual institution. Logically, the burden of proof should fall on those who are lobbying to allow gay marriage, because they are the people arguing for a change. And as much as I am in favor of gay marriage, I see very few people actually making arguments for why it should be allowed--how it would benefit society if it were allowed, how allowing gay marriage would bolster and promote the institution of marriage. Certainly, such arguments would be more compelling than empty appeals to "equal rights" and accusations of bigotry.

Blackdog said:

Yes. It goes...

God
Family
Country

In that exact order.

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so again, not to be offensive but then you HAVE to see that based on the premise of the OP it can EASILY be argued that you are hypocritical and anti-american and that you do want to discriminate and you do NOT want civil and equal rights based on america but based on your religion

not trying to insult you just saying you have to see the reality of that, finally you admit it though has thats what i wanted, but dont you see at least the ONE of many hypocrisies that IF the country agreed with you there'd be a chance you could NOT practice YOUR religion if we went another way? There would be no freedom of religion.

not trying to change your order, it is YOURS and your freedom and its not my place to change it but you have to see how easily that gets in the way of COUNTRY and laws and rights and our constitution and America and american reality, just saying

with admitting that I dont see how you cant agree your reasons have been easily debunked, you want to ignore everything for your religion which is your right BUT at last in America makes it debunked per the OP

in closing just so we are clear, since you finally admitted it Im done smacking you around
it is you absolute right to FEEL that way but ill never see the logic in discriminating on others

even has a black man doesnt that sting some? just saying that some used your very stance back in the day to say blacks were bad, slavery was ok and there should be no interracial marriage, now you are using it against gays?

oh well since you admitted it, to each his own

Blackdog said:

Not what I meant. She completely missed what I was saying. It was invisible to her.

I see through your eyes, you and the rest make no effort to see through mine.

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I see though them fine its just i end up with a black eye when logic punches me back to reality

you could still live it, believe it, think it, teach it, preach it that wouldnt change

I see through your eyes but I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice the freedoms of this country because then my freedom of the religion i love could end, i would just not vote for or against it.

Your Star said:

I still don't get your point. Just don't get involved in a gay marriage, and you aren't committing a sin in your eyes. You may live in a country that promotes sin in your eyes, but it's not like you would be forced marry a dude.

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Satan wants to keep us enslaved to this frame of mind. If he can convince us that we are not sinful or ignore that sin exists, He has made us believe that we do not need God. Sin encourages us to become our own god and established our own form of righteousness. (Romans 10:1-3)

Centrist77 said:

I see though them fine its just i end up with a black eye when logic punches me back to reality

you could still live it, believe it, think it, teach it, preach it that wouldnt change

I see through your eyes but I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice the freedoms of this country because then my freedom of the religion i love could end, i would just not vote for or against it.

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God must come first.

Satan wants to keep us enslaved to this frame of mind. If he can convince us that we are not sinful or ignore that sin exists, He has made us believe that we do not need God. Sin encourages us to become our own god and established our own form of righteousness. (Romans 10:1-3)

Blackdog said:

Satan wants to keep us enslaved to this frame of mind. If he can convince us that we are not sinful or ignore that sin exists, He has made us believe that we do not need God. Sin encourages us to become our own god and established our own form of righteousness. (Romans 10:1-3)

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So you would encourage laws against blasphemy? Because that is very legal in this country, but also a sin.

Centrist77 said:

so again, not to be offensive but then you HAVE to see that based on the premise of the OP it can EASILY be argued that you are hypocritical and anti-american and that you do want to discriminate and you do NOT want civil and equal rights based on america but based on your religion

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No, you said in the post below you see, but you don't.

You say I want to discriminate? Has gay marriage ever been legal in this country? No. Has marriage until recently ever been defined as between more than one man and one women in this country? No. Can gays marry anyone of the opposite sex they wish? Yes. Are they restricted by polygamy laws etc like everyone else? Yes. Have their always been restrictions on marriage? Yes.

No discromination.

You say I am being hypocritical. Am I bound by all the same laws gay people are? Yes.

Nope. No hypocrite here.

Did the founding fathers own slaves? Yes. Did the founding fathers allow men or wemon to marry the same sex? No. Does the Constitution mention anything about marraige? No. Do I act in any way to hinder law abiding citizens or speak out against the US and it's allies? No.

Nope not anti American.

Centrist77 said:

not trying to insult you just saying you have to see the reality of that, finally you admit it though has thats what i wanted, but dont you see at least the ONE of many hypocrisies that IF the country agreed with you there'd be a chance you could NOT practice YOUR religion if we went another way? There would be no freedom of religion.

not trying to change your order, it is YOURS and your freedom and its not my place to change it but you have to see how easily that gets in the way of COUNTRY and laws and rights and our constitution and America and american reality, just saying

with admitting that I dont see how you cant agree your reasons have been easily debunked, you want to ignore everything for your religion which is your right BUT at last in America makes it debunked per the OP

in closing just so we are clear, since you finally admitted it Im done smacking you around
it is you absolute right to FEEL that way but ill never see the logic in discriminating on others

even has a black man doesnt that sting some? just saying that some used your very stance back in the day to say blacks were bad, slavery was ok and there should be no interracial marriage, now you are using it against gays?

oh well since you admitted it, to each his own

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God must come first.

Your Star said:

So you would encourage laws against blasphemy? Because that is very legal in this country, but also a sin.

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No law is needed. Blasphemy against God is not a sin. That is a Catholic thing although it would be looked down upon.

Don't try and nit pick laws that do not exist and never will.

We are not a theocracy. This however does not mean we cannot rally against what we see as wrong for whatever reason.

Centrist77 said:

i dont not want them to reflect MY views, I want it to reflect the LAW and to not discriminate based on the LAW, read that again slow, ill wait

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The law is that marriage is between a man and a woman. It is your view that the law should be changed. It is your view that the definition of marriage, as it currently stands, is discriminatory. It is your view that homosexual marriage should be allowed. It is your argument that these views should be reflected in the law against the will and the vehement opposition of the majority of Americans. You are attempting to impose your views on the law, on our law which applies to and belongs to all of us.

independent_thinker2002 said:

Here's the thing, if you don't want to have a gay marriage, it's your choice to not have one. No one is forcing you to. It's not going to be mandatory. You won't have any views forced on you.

But for others to say that someone else can't, that is forcing your views on another. They don't have the liberty to choose.

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You are assuming the liberal argument that everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want, should be free to choose whatever they want. Not everyone shares that belief and not everyone wants that belief to be reflected in the law.

Blackdog said:

No law is needed. Blasphemy against God is not a sin. That is a Catholic thing although it would be looked down upon.

Don't try and nit pick laws that do not exist and never will.

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But it's the same concept, using religion as a base for laws. You may have your religious values, and thats fine. But we live in a country were all religions are allowed to live. So using someone's religious views as a basis for laws, and what is allowed or disallowed isn't really the best thing for this country. Also like I've said, I don't understand how allowing gay marriage is a sin? It's not like you will be in one.

Korimyr the Rat said:

The OP seems to assume that allowing gay marriage is the default, which I don't understand.

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nope you assume I assume that

Korimyr the Rat said:

We don't allow it now. We've never allowed it in the past.

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so? doesnt make it right

Korimyr the Rat said:

Marriage has, until very recently, been defined as an entirely heterosexual institution.

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false historically, language wise and meaningless overall to the debate

Korimyr the Rat said:

Logically, the burden of proof should fall on those who are lobbying to allow gay marriage, because they are the people arguing for a change.

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this has easily been done, just read the OP and the thread and focus on discrimination, equal and civil rights

Korimyr the Rat said:

And as much as I am in favor of gay marriage, I see very few people actually making arguments for why it should be allowed

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then reread cause its here

Korimyr the Rat said:

how it would benefit society if it were allowed, how allowing gay marriage would bolster and promote the institution of marriage. Certainly, such arguments would be more compelling than empty appeals to "equal rights" and accusations of bigotry.

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why would it be more compelling?
it be more compelling to argue something meaningless or subjective rather than easily proved denied equal rights, civil rights and discrimination.

I just wouldn't see value in that since i know tons of marriages NOW that hold no value and do not bolster and promote the institution of marriage nor does the law require them too

Your Star said:

But it's the same concept, using religion as a base for laws.

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How is religion different from any other source of moral beliefs?

Your Star said:

Also like I've said, I don't understand how allowing gay marriage is a sin? It's not like you will be in one.

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If I understand Blackdog's position correctly, it isn't allowing gay marriage that is a sin-- it is the act of changing the law to allow it that is a sin. He is not allowed to support or promote homosexuality, which arguing in favor of legalizing gay marriage would definitely constitute.

Your Star said:

But it's the same concept, using religion as a base for laws. You may have your religious values, and thats fine. But we live in a country were all religions are allowed to live. So using someone's religious views as a basis for laws, and what is allowed or disallowed isn't really the best thing for this country. Also like I've said, I don't understand how allowing gay marriage is a sin? It's not like you will be in one.

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No it's not. I am not using my religion for the bases of making laws. I am using my morals, which in this case come from my religion.

So no, wrong.

Are you a Christian? Do you know anything about the laws laid down in the Bible? If not I really don't expect you to know much about it.

Korimyr the Rat said:

The law is that marriage is between a man and a woman. It is your view that the law should be changed. It is your view that the definition of marriage, as it currently stands, is discriminatory. It is your view that homosexual marriage should be allowed. It is your argument that these views should be reflected in the law against the will and the vehement opposition of the majority of Americans. You are attempting to impose your views on the law, on our law which applies to and belongs to all of us.

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more fantasy all i want is to end discrimination which you are right it is all our law, you choose to IGNORE it or stand for it I choose to fight for it and stand up for the americans being discriminated against

Korimyr the Rat said:

You are assuming the liberal argument that everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want, should be free to choose whatever they want. Not everyone shares that belief and not everyone wants that belief to be reflected in the law.

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wrong again and more fantasy, who said everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want? not me nice try I just don't want people discriminated against marriage wise, what you wrote above is nothing more than empty:spin:

Centrist77 said:

nope you assume I assume that

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Cute. But the wording of the OP implies that unless there is a good reason to prohibit it, it should be allowed. Since it is currently not allowed, the shoe belongs properly on the other foot-- unless there is a good reason to allow it, it should remain prohibited.

Korimyr the Rat said:

We don't allow it now. We've never allowed it in the past.

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Centrist77 said:

so? doesnt make it right

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No, but it makes it the law. You are claiming that your moral beliefs have nothing to do with this argument, and that it is based entirely in the law. I have shown that this is not the case.

Centrist77 said:

this has easily been done, just read the OP and the thread and focus on discrimination, equal and civil rights

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Marriage isn't a right and shouldn't be a right. Marriage is a social institution that serves a purpose-- multiple purposes, actually-- and in order to change the laws concerning it we must demonstrate that the changes serve those purposes.

Centrist77 said:

why would it be more compelling?
it be more compelling to argue something meaningless or subjective rather than easily proved denied equal rights, civil rights and discrimination.

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The fact that you believe societal benefit and social order are meaningless is telling. You are incapable of seeing any side of this argument but your own.

Blackdog said:

No it's not. I am not using my religion for the bases of making laws. I am using my morals, which in this case come from my religion.

So no, wrong.

Are you a Christian? Do you know anything about the laws laid down in the Bible? If not I really don't expect you to know much about it.

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As for the bolded part, if you use your morals as a basis for law, and your morals come from your religion then yes you are using your religion as the basis for laws. You can't spin your way out of that one.

And yes I'm a Christian. Self admittedly I am a very liberal Christian. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, there is not enough evidence to compel me to believe so. I think it's just another variation in God's beautiful creation.
Also, even if I did believe homosexuality was a sin, I would still be in support for gay marriage, because my politics, will always, and forever be secular. When religion gets involved in politics, nasty things happen.

Your Star said:

Also, even if I did believe homosexuality was a sin, I would still be in support for gay marriage, because my politics, will always, and forever be secular. When religion gets involved in politics, nasty things happen.

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How do you reconcile your political beliefs with your morals? And where do your morals come from, if they are not derived from your religion?

Your Star said:

As for the bolded part, if you use your morals as a basis for law, and your morals come from your religion then yes you are using your religion as the basis for laws. You can't spin your way out of that one.

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Oh I see. So if peoples morals are based in nothing it's OK. If peoples morals are based on religion, they should not be allowed to vote etc. Pot, meet kettle.

Hows that for spin?

Your Star said:

And yes I'm a Christian. Self admittedly I am a very liberal Christian. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, there is not enough evidence to compel me to believe so.

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I agree, it's not like a man shall not lie with a man as he does a woman is any kind of biblical evidence. Along with all the other verses we posted.

Your Star said:

I think it's just another variation in God's beautiful creation.

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And yet this beautiful creation was called an abomination to the lord.

Your Star said:

Also, even if I did believe homosexuality was a sin, I would still be in support for gay marriage, because my politics, will always, and forever be secular. When religion gets involved in politics, nasty things happen.

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Many people put other things before God. I will not condemn you for it. I will say that is not the correct path according to scripture though.

Blackdog said:

No, you said in the post below you see, but you don't.

You say I want to discriminate? Has gay marriage ever been legal in this country? No. Has marriage until recently ever been defined as between more than one man and one women in this country? No. Can gays marry anyone of the opposite sex they wish? Yes. Are they restricted by polygamy laws etc like everyone else? Yes. Have their always been restrictions on marriage? Yes.

No discromination.

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dude you are smarter than this, watch how easy i debunke your argument you are not even trying.
Were women allowed to vote BEFORE they were allowed? nope
Were slaves allowed to be free in this country before they were allowed? nope
we minorities treated equal before they were? nope

guess they were never discriminated against either LMAO
come on? you knew better than that
its totally discrimination

Blackdog said:

You say I am being hypocritical. Am I bound by all the same laws gay people are? Yes.

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Nope. No hypocrite here. but you want GODS laws to be above everything and not others to have that same freedom, that = hypocrite

Blackdog said:

Did the founding fathers own slaves? Yes. Did the founding fathers allow men or wemon to marry the same sex? No. Does the Constitution mention anything about marriage? No. Do I act in any way to hinder law abiding citizens or speak out against the US and it's allies? No.

Nope not anti American.

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what you said doesnt even make any sense or have a bearing on the debate, you can easily be argued anti american because the constitution, laws, freedoms and citizens of america dont matter to you, or matter less that you bible eventhough america is what allows you to use that bible

Blackdog said:

God must come first.

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I get this is your stance and I told you i respect it since you finally manned up and admitted it, all i needed was for you to admit that your religion and god are more important than anything including america, americans, laws, and constitution

told you ill wont debunk you any more cause you admitted your truth

Centrist77 said:

wrong again and more fantasy, who said everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want? not me nice try I just don't want people discriminated against marriage wise, what you wrote above is nothing more than empty:spin:

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Ummmm you did?

I want EVERYBODY to get their way and EVERYBODY to get to practice their OWN views but some how you figure that "i" dont care? LMAO hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Korimyr the Rat said:

Cute. But the wording of the OP implies that unless there is a good reason to prohibit it, it should be allowed. Since it is currently not allowed, the shoe belongs properly on the other foot-- unless there is a good reason to allow it, it should remain prohibited..

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again you ASSUMED that is my stance that it is the standard I did not you talking in circles wont change that

Korimyr the Rat said:

No, but it makes it the law. You are claiming that your moral beliefs have nothing to do with this argument, and that it is based entirely in the law. I have shown that this is not the case.

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha wow! you cant be serious, do you understand that what you are saying is IMPOSSIBLE, you can NOT tell me what I think and feel, my morals do NOT play a role, the law does, this is a FACT you cant not change lmao, there are people here that do not like the gay lifestyle "morally" but they still believe in equal rights, this isnt rocket science

Korimyr the Rat said:

Marriage isn't a right and shouldn't be a right. Marriage is a social institution that serves a purpose-- multiple purposes, actually-- and in order to change the laws concerning it we must demonstrate that the changes serve those purposes.

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opinion that currently isnt true, some marriages serve no purposes except to the people involved and the law is to not discriminate, next

Korimyr the Rat said:

The fact that you believe societal benefit and social order are meaningless is telling. You are incapable of seeing any side of this argument but your own.

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again you are making stuff up who said I didnt see it? NOBODY, i said I dont see the value in "arguing" it because many marriages do not benfit society nor does the law require them to but please feel free to continue to make stuff up to feel right doesnt bother me I know the truth

Korimyr the Rat said:

How do you reconcile your political beliefs with your morals? And where do your morals come from, if they are not derived from your religion?

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I have morals that come from my religion, like kindness, acceptance, peace, tolerance. But I don't limit my morals to my religion. We live in a world where not everyone is Christian, and I'm not about to use my religion in my politics to force someone to have to follow a part of my religion that they may disagree with. An example I won't say g-damn, but I'm not about to suggest a law to have that word banned.

Centrist77 said:

I get this is your stance and I told you i respect it since you finally manned up and admitted it, all i needed was for you to admit that your religion and god are more important than anything including america, americans, laws, and constitution

told you ill wont debunk you any more cause you admitted your truth

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Manned up and admitted it??? What the heck are you talking about? I never denied it. I have always put God before country. I put my family above it as well.

Why would I put all my faith in a country that thinks health care is a right? That it's OK for the poor to steal from the rich. A country that thinks it's OK to declare pre-emptive wars and to torture.

Dude you put your faith in the wrong thing.

As for being anti American, I will leave you with the words of Thomas Jefferson...

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.

I guess he was anti American as well?

Blackdog said:

Ummmm you did?

I want EVERYBODY to get their way and EVERYBODY to get to practice their OWN views but some how you figure that "i" dont care? LMAO hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

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so let me get this straight the sentence above applies to EVERYTHING and not gay marriage even though thats the topic at hand and the thread we are talking about? got it, that makes logical sense
LMAO hahahahaha
again its just astonishing your lack of logic in your arguments sometimes, WOW, just WOW
does the word context mean anything to you? for a proclaimed "bible" studier and interrupter you sure are poor at figuring out the meaning of words and a sentence and the thread title does this for you! man, cant see how you could ever get the bible wrong:2rofll:

Centrist77 said:

wow! you cant be serious, do you understand that what you are saying is IMPOSSIBLE, you can NOT tell me what I think and feel, my morals do NOT play a role, the law does, this is a FACT you cant not change

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I don't have to tell you what you think and feel. Everything I've said about you is based in your own words. If your words are not consistent with your thoughts and feelings, there's nothing I can do about it.