View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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    186 43.26%
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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #71
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    nothing more than opinion and opinion you have 100% right too believe in but not one you should force on others
    I most certainly do have a right, that is what being part of our society is all about. I want the laws etc to develop around what I morally and logically want. I don't care what you want, even if I do care about what you have to say and your input. After all is said and done we vote or go to court etc based on our own morality.

    That is how this country and our society works, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    why did you focus one "dudes" what about women they are in this equation too, just a question
    That is silly. It was just an example. I clearly stated my position in my original post you responded to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    They can have civil unions or get the government out of the marriage business altogether.

    Two men or women do not make a marriage. They should however have all the rights and privileges of a married couple no matter what it is called.

    My reasons for being against gay marriage is purely religious and semantics.

    It is not open for debate. It will immediately turn this thread into a religious bashing session. Not interested in that.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 05-01-10 at 04:03 PM.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    My first post was #102

    And I added it to the link I posted earlier.
    I thanked you for your post 102, here, because I appreciate your well thought out position, though I ultimately disagree with it.

    I actually agree with your determination as to the significance of the Preamble. The Preamble explains the proper role of government. Where I would diverge from what you've stated is that the amendments (bill of rights and others) qualify and clarify that role. I think you would ultimately agree with me, thus far. You would probably even agree that the 14th limits what can be done to "Promote the general welfare". But, for those of us who subscribe to a developmentalist approach to interpretation, the 14th also bears upon the limits of what you may exclude gay people from.

    But, even within the context of what you alone are asserting, I don't believe that you can show that gay marriage harms the general welfare, which is what you'd have to do. And since gay marriage is legal in some states, it will increasingly be difficult for you to assert this, since we are seeing no ill effects from gay marriage upon the general welfare.

    Again, thank you for your thoughtful post.

  3. #73
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    You really don't need the added flaming at the end of your post,.. do you?
    I've dealt with enough social conservatives on this forum to know how you guys operate. You make what you feel is a strong case, and when someone comes by with an evidence based positoin that suggests otherwise, you either deteriorate into the ol' "the Bible says its wrong" argument or you disappear entirely. But I gave you the last line so you could make a red herring out of it and change the topic. I'm just that nice of a guy.

  4. #74
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    Cool Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I've dealt with enough social conservatives on this forum to know how you guys operate. You make what you feel is a strong case, and when someone comes by with an evidence based positoin that suggests otherwise, you either deteriorate into the ol' "the Bible says its wrong" argument or you disappear entirely. But I gave you the last line so you could make a red herring out of it and change the topic. I'm just that nice of a guy.
    Whatever,...

    Here's what I have;

    Certainly, homosexuality, incest and polygamy existed in the time of our nations founding.... but our founders were not compelled to address the issue specifically. They chose to charge the government with "providing for the common defense and promoting the general welfare."
    Yeah, I know... the preamble is not considered by some to be legally or constitutionally binding... to them (you?) I ask,... then what is the purpose having a preamble at all?... if not to amplify the writers intentions? (also see; Article 8, section 1)

    No one is saying (at least I'm not) that gays couldn't still form other types of unions,... have whatever religious or otherwise legal contracts between one another, etc... that's all well and good.

    What I am saying is,.. being that the family is the most basic self sustainable element in a society,... and the one man one woman couple being the most basic self "sustainable" structure for a family (generally speaking here, remember?)... Then why not have the government recognize and even reward those things which are GENERALLY good for the general welfare of all?

    I am a minimalist where government is concerned. I understand and even share many of your concerns about having less intrusive, smaller government.... But that being said,.. I believe that there are some legitimate roles for the government to play in the preservation of our societies (general welfare) as well as the protections of our rights (rights of pre-birth children).

    If in the end we just have to agree to disagree... at least we both got to present our positions. Thanks!
    AND;

    If the case can be made that same sex "marriage" is essential for the "general welfare" of the Nation? By all means, amend the definition. But do so keeping it in mind; how it will affect immigration, naturalization, and all the other laws concerning "marriage."

    Again, I don't view being treated with indifference as being the same as one being "discriminated against."
    Last edited by Chuz Life; 05-01-10 at 04:15 PM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Thomas Jefferson advocated for the castration of homosexual males. And his view was considered "progressive" at the time.

    But that is irrelevant. You argument could just as easily be used to argue for same sex marriage. I've demonstrated how society could profit immensely from having it, whereas you have provided no evidence that it is harmful to society and that society is not better off for having it.

    You have taken the small government defense, but you have failed to provide an argument for why heterosexual families should get to enjoy marriage whereas same sex families should not.

    I can't see that you even have an argument. And that leads me to the conclusion that you are basing your opinions on your feelings rather than on reason.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 05-01-10 at 04:18 PM.

  6. #76
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    If the case can be made that same sex "marriage" is essential for the "general welfare" of the Nation? By all means, amend the definition. But do so keeping it in mind; how it will affect immigration, naturalization, and all the other laws concerning "marriage."

    Again, I don't view being treated with indifference as being the same as one being "discriminated against."
    Appeal to consequences of belief fallacy.

    Next?

  7. #77
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    Cool Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You have taken the small government defense, but you have failed to provide an argument for why heterosexual families should get to enjoy marriage whereas same sex families should not..
    Then you have ignored the fact that I have said gays can (and do) form any sort of unions they want.

    Government recognition is a completely different matter.

    Government recognition is not necessary for couples to form their relationships and rear their children (no punn intended).
    Last edited by Chuz Life; 05-01-10 at 04:38 PM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Oh, we are back to that again eh? So is this where you are going to start arguing that childless heterosexual couples shouldn't be alllowed to marry? Infertile heterosexual couples? Couples to old to have children?

    Why do you make this ridiculous argument? If you don't like the idea of gay marriage, then just say so. Don't try to justify it with ridiculous reasoning that even you don't believe.
    Why do keep assuming I'm making the "because this is how we've always don it" argument?

    It's been at least 3 years since I've abandoned that argument.

    I support gay marriage when gay marriage is about the same thing every other kind of marriage is about.

  9. #79
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Then you have ignored the fact that I have said gays can (and do) for any sort of unions they want.

    Government recognition is a completely different matter.

    Government recognition is not necessary for couples to form their relationships and rear their children (no punn intended).
    The argument I made has nothing to do with whether or not gays can form their own unions. It is whether or not children can benefit from being raised by an unmarried same sex couple in the same way they can by being raised by a married same sex couple. The evidence I provided shows that marriage provides benefits to those children and therefore government recognition of same sex marriage is in the interest of those children and thus in the interest of general welfare.

    What you continue to fail to do is provide evidence as to why those children should be denied the benefit of being raised by a married couple just because their parents are the same sex.

    I don't care about the Constitutional rights of the gays when it comes to gay marriage. I care about the Constitutional rights of children being raised by gays when it comes to gay marriage.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 05-01-10 at 04:40 PM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    so you think its right for YOU to tell two consenting adults they cant marry eachother, you believe thats YOU place, right and say?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    interesting, why?
    The Constitution told me so.

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