View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #731
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    In my perfect world, the following would be the case:

    No marriage as currently defined - replaced with exclusively legal/financial "civil unions" or the like.

    The above mentioned legal joining is available to everyone.

    Any tax breaks and the like are given if the legally joined persons meet standards set for such by the government offering them.
    Note: As I understand it, the tax breaks were originally meant to promote stable families and homes, but that may be different now.

    No restrictions except a requirement for mutual consent on religious/social/personal marriage between two or more persons - issues must be resolved between the individuals and/or religious entities involved, within the boundaries of law of course (as in, don't kill anyone, ect.).
    So in your perfect world you would choose to discriminate?
    Or
    are you saying from here on out there are no more "marriages" and you calll them all civil unions
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    So in your perfect world you would choose to discriminate?
    Or
    are you saying from here on out there are no more "marriages" and you calll them all civil unions
    The latter, obviously...How the hell did you think I meant the former?

    Or rather, as I suggested, marriages are exclusively a personal/religious matter, with no legal/financial/government involvement.

    Edit: And as a side note, if the government chose to discriminate on some grounds in regards to granting tax breaks, that would be fine - depending on the grounds, of course.
    Last edited by The Mark; 06-04-10 at 07:16 PM.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    The latter, obviously...How the hell did you think I meant the former?
    because it didnt seem clear to me if you meant ALL or just meant "civil unions" and Marriage will be available, sorry thats why I asked though
    figured that be better than assuming

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Or rather, as I suggested, marriages are exclusively a personal/religious matter, with no legal/financial/government involvement.

    Edit: And as a side note, if the government chose to discriminate on some grounds in regards to granting tax breaks, that would be fine - depending on the grounds, of course.
    Well I think your stance is off topicper the OP but since you seem to just bring it up rationally and unemotionally and arent a troll lets discuss it

    Ok why do you suggest this course?
    How would this possibly be easier?
    What about all the people already married under the law, do we take away their title and now call then civil unions.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    I am opposed to separating the concept of State-recognized "civil unions" from personal/religious "marriages". The State's recognition of and involvement in marriage stems from marriage being a vital social institution that must be protected, not only by churches and social pressures, but by the law. Marriage must be upheld as a social norm, regardless of whether homosexuals are allowed to participate in it or not.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I am opposed to separating the concept of State-recognized "civil unions" from personal/religious "marriages". The State's recognition of and involvement in marriage stems from marriage being a vital social institution that must be protected, not only by churches and social pressures, but by the law. Marriage must be upheld as a social norm, regardless of whether homosexuals are allowed to participate in it or not.
    I tend to agree for multiple reasons
    just easier to keep the same terminology and stop discriminating
    the law is already written for marriage
    changing the word will only incite MORE outrage IMO because it will obviously and legitimately be argued that it was changed just because of gays and is discrimination

    but i wanted to ask him anyway to see his answers
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Because it didn’t seem clear to me if you meant ALL or just meant "civil unions" and Marriage will be available, sorry that’s why I asked though
    figured that be better than assuming
    Basically, my thought is to separate the legal and social/religious parts of marriage, to try and side-step the whole religious aspect of the gay marriage issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Well I think your stance is off topic per the OP but since you seem to just bring it up rationally and unemotionally and aren’t a troll lets discuss it
    It is directly related to the OP, in that it directly ties in with my stance on the poll question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Ok why do you suggest this course?
    As above, to side-step the whole religious aspect of the gay marriage debate - hopefully a majority of people who are currently opposed because of such will stop being opposed, or at least start sounding even more unreasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    How would this possibly be easier?
    As I see it, if you separate the legal/financial aspects of the current marriage setup from the religious/social aspects, you can then allow gay couples to acquire the legal aspects of marriage (which as I understand it, is one of the main reasons they want to be allowed to marry under the law) without upsetting those who are opposed to the religious/social aspect of same-sex marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    What about all the people already married under the law, do we take away their title and now call then civil unions.
    Yes and no.
    Yes we change the legal term and call it civil unions, no we don't take away their title.
    As the matter of that title (as I assume you were talking about "marriage") would be a personal/religious matter if my thoughts became law, it wouldn’t be anyone's business except theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I am opposed to separating the concept of State-recognized "civil unions" from personal/religious "marriages". The State's recognition of and involvement in marriage stems from marriage being a vital social institution that must be protected, not only by churches and social pressures, but by the law. Marriage must be upheld as a social norm, regardless of whether homosexuals are allowed to participate in it or not.
    Interesting point.

    I would say that the government could just as easily use a “civil union” to recognize and support those marriages they wish to preserve and uphold as social norms.

    If, for example, they wish to promote child-rearing, they could easily put in place a requirement in their civil union code that limits or partially limits the people who can acquire it to only those that have/plan to have children.

    If they want to promote a stable marriage, they can offer increased tax breaks to long-term marriages.

    And so on.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    I tend to agree for multiple reasons
    just easier to keep the same terminology and stop discriminating
    the law is already written for marriage
    changing the word will only incite MORE outrage IMO because it will obviously and legitimately be argued that it was changed just because of gays and is discrimination

    but i wanted to ask him anyway to see his answers
    I still don't see how you repeatedly seem to think that changing a title = discrimination.

    If everyone falls under the same title, how does it discriminate?
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Basically, my thought is to separate the legal and social/religious parts of marriage, to try and side-step the whole religious aspect of the gay marriage issue.
    dont see how that would though since gays can already get married, just not leaglly. Marriage is a law thing not a religious. take the ;aw away and everybody and anybody is married EQUALLY still so people crying that it discraces the word would still have the same thing to cry about has they do now hence ONE of the reasons i never understood that argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    It is directly related to the OP, in that it directly ties in with my stance on the poll question.
    Ill give you indirectly at best hence removing marriage negates the question, so it cant be directly related

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    As above, to side-step the whole religious aspect of the gay marriage debate - hopefully a majority of people who are currently opposed because of such will stop being opposed, or at least start sounding even more unreasonable.

    you could be right but imo i think the exact opposite would happen has most would view the name change as to not allow gays to ever obtain that lawful title

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    As I see it, if you separate the legal/financial aspects of the current marriage setup from the religious/social aspects, you can then allow gay couples to acquire the legal aspects of marriage (which as I understand it, is one of the main reasons they want to be allowed to marry under the law) without upsetting those who are opposed to the religious/social aspect of same-sex marriage.
    why cater to people who want to discriminate
    and also you dont think this would also upset many gays has it would be obvious dodge or owing up to equal rights?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Yes and no.
    Yes we change the legal term and call it civil unions, no we don't take away their title.
    As the matter of that title (as I assume you were talking about "marriage") would be a personal/religious matter if my thoughts became law, it wouldn’t be anyone's business except theirs.
    and thats exactly why i think it would cause more problems as it would be very transparent that it was changed only to not allow to have gays use the word marriage

    [/QUOTE]
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I still don't see how you repeatedly seem to think that changing a title = discrimination.

    If everyone falls under the same title, how does it discriminate?
    like i said it would be obviously donw to appease the group of discriminators as oppose to practicing equal rights

    for example what if blacks(of any large part) werent allowed to be president(but there was no laws saying people coudnt vote for them) Obama wins and they were forced to do something about it. No some people cry the word president is sacred it can be associated with blacks, so instead of just using equal rights they cater to discriminators and change the word to something else it doesnt matter like CEA, Chief Executive of America

    you telling me thats not discrimination on any level and people would have a legit grip?
    I agree if the word marriage never exists then no discrimination but CHANGING it because now its going to allow blacks or gays etc can EASILY be argued has such

    So lady you cant be CEO cause your a women but we will let you run the company and now were are going to call it group leader from now on because CEO is to good for you
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Don’t see how that would though since gays can already get married, just not legally. Marriage is a law thing not a religious. Take the law away and everybody and anybody is married EQUALLY still so people crying that it disgraces the word would still have the same thing to cry about as they do now hence ONE of the reasons I never understood that argument.
    Well, as you may have guessed from my previous posts, I am of the opinion that marriage has two parts, the legal and the religious.
    Partly because of this, I don’t think government should be involved in ANY marriages (the whole separation of church and state bit).
    Perhaps I’m nuts…
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    I’ll give you indirectly at best hence removing marriage negates the question, so it can’t be directly related
    Excellent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    You could be right but IMO I think the exact opposite would happen as most would view the name change as to not allow gays to ever obtain that lawful title
    Well, that would be the effect, but I’m actually supporting it more so that no one can obtain that lawful title.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Why cater to people who want to discriminate?
    And also don’t you think this would upset many gays as it would be an obvious dodge from owing up to equal rights?
    Trying to correct your English usage in sentences really messes with my responses…But here goes:
    It’s not catering to people who want to discriminate, it’s eliminating any real connection between religious marriage and legal marriage by changing the title of legal marriage, thus (IMO) nixing the whole “The word “marriage” is a sacred religious thingy and forcing us to accept those disgusting gays using the word would violate separation of church and state” pseudo-argument”.
    As to it being an obvious dodge, I don’t see it that way at all. I see it as granting those rights completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    And that’s exactly why I think it would cause more problems as it would be very transparent that it was changed only to not allow to have gays use the word marriage.
    Actually, if they insist that the same word be used, they are no better than those who insist the word has religious meaning. It’s just a damn word, and you can use it all you want. Hell, you can even call the legal “civil union” a marriage if you want; no one will be able to say **** about it legally, which is the whole issue anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Like I said it would be obviously done to appease the group of discriminators as opposed to practicing equal rights.
    Not at all obvious, as my previous responses show (IMO, of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    For example what if blacks (of any large part) weren’t allowed to be president (but there was no laws saying people couldn’t vote for them).
    Obama wins and they were forced to do something about it.
    “No!” some people cry the word president is sacred it can’t be associated with blacks, so instead of just using equal rights they cater to discriminators and change the word to something else it doesn’t matter like CEA, Chief Executive of America
    Ok, what’s with the “(of any large part)” bit? Don’t get that.

    But on to your point: Not a good example, as the presidency has no religious aspect, and thus (IMO) no even tentative reason to complain on religious grounds. And I consider the religious aspect slightly applicable to the gay marriage bit. But we’ve been over that, if memory serves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    You telling me that’s not discrimination on any level and people would not have a legit gripe?
    I agree if the word marriage never exists then no discrimination but CHANGING it because now it’s going to allow blacks or gays etc can EASILY be argued has such.
    Perhaps.

    But if eliminating marriage from government control (except the legal equivalent of it, obviously) requires weathering that storm, so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    So lady you can’t be CEO because you’re a women but we will let you run the company and now we’re are going to call it group leader from now on because CEO is to good for you.
    That would be discrimination. Again, a poor parallel IMO.


    Basically, I see some validity in the argument that:

    Granting the ability to enter into a legal contract entitled “marriage” would in effect force people who disagree with that interpretation of the word to accept it against their religious views. Thus, IMO, violating the whole separation of church and state bit.

    But I don’t think you agree, as we’ve been over that.

    Awhile ago, too.

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