View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #601
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    OK becoming to much to respond to, so I will summarize my position and we can go from there.

    I have no problem and support gay couples adopting even more so than single parent adoptions. I have stated this multiple times throughout the thread.

    I agree with the experts and a proven history that a male, female home is the optimal parental arrangement for child rearing. This has nothing at all to do with gays adopting.
    When you get time, can you post some of these studies? As I have read the studies it goes like this when it comes to optimal configuration...

    1. Extended Family
    2. Two parent family
    3. Single parent family

    I have yet to see any evidence that male/female is naturally more optimal than same sex. The latest 25 years of research has yielded no significant difference. The last few pages we have been discussing a supposition that there might be a gender role difference, but even that has no evidence to back it up. So while your experts may prattle about male/female being optimal, they do so without any evidence to support their position. Most people who make that argument simply misuse studies of single mothers to make an argument that it is the missing gender of one of the parents, and not the fact that it is only one parent, that is the cause of all the deficits that single mothers face. I think those are the experts you are quoting.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Nothing.

    I was just making the point that people new what I meant, and that his comparing alcoholic abusive parents to loving good parents was nothing more than a red herring fallacy.
    Your comment added nothing new to the discussion and meant nothing, since there was no context. Children do better with a mother and father is meaningless unless you quantify it. Children do better with a mother and father do better than what? Better than without a mother and a father? All things being equal, of course, but that had nothing to do with the conversation and as you said it, illogical. That is the point.

    Since you were making your comment on top of digsbe's where he was saying that gay parents are not as good as heterosexual ones, children do better with a mother and father do better? Better than... look, it is obvious that you made a benign yet meaningless comment. I understood what you were trying to say, but like I said, the way that you said it was meaningless.

    What is worse is seeing you try and take some superior logical position while and you are making a logical fallacy trying to defend your original comment... Appeal to Popularity. Everyone didn't understand you, a few might but others might not. I though, called you one it.

    ...And it wasn't a Red Herring, it was logic itself. If a point can be proven incorrect by example, then the point isn't logical. Children do no always do better with a mother and a father. It is illogical to make such a statement. I didn't attempt to divert any point you made, and that is wha ta Red Herring fallacy is, an attempt to divert.

    LOL!

    And to adress that as if it means anything... seriously pathetic.

    In the end, you made a meaningless and illogical comment. Great. Now what? Do you want a cookie?
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  3. #603
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Your comment added nothing new to the discussion and meant nothing, since there was no context. Children do better with a mother and father is meaningless unless you quantify it. Children do better with a mother and father do better than what? Better than without a mother and a father? All things being equal, of course, but that had nothing to do with the conversation and as you said it, illogical. That is the point.
    I did not respond to you. I responded to Cilogy, because he new what I was referring too. You assumed something that had nothing to do with my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Since you were making your comment on top of digsbe's where he was saying that gay parents are not as good as heterosexual ones, children do better with a mother and father do better? Better than... look, it is obvious that you made a benign yet meaningless comment. I understood what you were trying to say, but like I said, the way that you said it was meaningless.
    If you had read what I had stated before, which is again why I was not responding to you it would have had meaning.

    You keep saying I jumped into your conversation when it was the exact opposite and then made a bad assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    What is worse is seeing you try and take some superior logical position while and you are making a logical fallacy trying to defend your original comment... Appeal to Popularity. Everyone didn't understand you, a few might but others might not. I though, called you one it.
    You did not call me on anything. You made a bad assumption and than tried to use what amounted to a fallacy that was completely irrelevant. Again the response was not to you, and you did not bother to read what came before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    ...And it wasn't a Red Herring, it was logic itself.
    Yes a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If a point can be proven incorrect by example, then the point isn't logical. Children do no always do better with a mother and a father. It is illogical to make such a statement. I didn't attempt to divert any point you made, and that is wha ta Red Herring fallacy is, an attempt to divert.

    LOL!
    Then take this opportunity and point out how...

    "comparing alcoholic abusive parents to loving good parents"

    had anything even remotely to do with what I said other than a fallacy argument that was pointless and an attempt to divert from my actual argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    .to adress that as if it means anything... seriously pathetic.

    In the end, you made a meaningless and illogical comment. Great. Now what? Do you want a cookie?
    Now you are baiting and making personal attacks.

    Have a good evening.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post



    If you had read what I had stated before, which is again why I was not responding to you it would have had meaning.

    You keep saying I jumped into your conversation when it was the exact opposite and then made a bad assumption.



    You did not call me on anything. You made a bad assumption and than tried to use what amounted to a fallacy that was completely irrelevant. Again the response was not to you, and you did not bother to read what came before.



    Yes a logical fallacy.



    Then take this opportunity and point out how...

    "comparing alcoholic abusive parents to loving good parents"

    had anything even remotely to do with what I said other than a fallacy argument that was pointless and an attempt to divert from my actual argument.



    Now you are baiting and making personal attacks.

    Have a good evening.
    I already explained how your statement was illogical, how my response was logical, how you commited a fallacy and how I did not commit a fallacy... no need to do it again. I think that you are too sensitive to keep talking to. All this personal attack stuff is ridiculous. Was that another attack in your opinion?

    Good evening to you as well, though it is just after morning here...
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    OK becoming to much to respond to, so I will summarize my position and we can go from there.

    I have no problem and support gay couples adopting even more so than single parent adoptions. I have stated this multiple times throughout the thread.

    I agree with the experts and a proven history that a male, female home is the optimal parental arrangement for child rearing. This has nothing at all to do with gays adopting or raising a family.

    Different levels of good exist.

    You people seem to think everything is all or nothing. Get over it.
    Regarding the bold. What experts? These experts say the that there is no scientific evidence that backs your statement...

    There Is No Scientific Basis for Concluding That Gay and Lesbian Parents Are Any Less Fit or Capable Than Heterosexual Parents, or That Their Children Are Any Less Psychologically Healthy and Well Adjusted.

    Although it is sometimes asserted in policy debates that heterosexual couples are inherently better parents than same-sex couples, or that the children of lesbian or gay parents fare worse than children raised by heterosexual parents, those assertions find no support in the scientific research literature.


    - American Psychological Association
    - California Psychological Association
    - American Psychiatric Association
    - National Association of Social Workers

    http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/s...riae_Brief.pdf

    The research literature on gay, lesbian, and bisexual parents includes more than two dozen empirical studies. These studies vary in the quality of their samples, research design, measurement methods, and data analysis techniques. However, they are impressively consistent in their failure to identify deficits in the development of children raised in a lesbian or gay household. In summarizing the findings from these studies, the psychologist amici refer to several reviews of the empirical literature published in respected, peer-reviewed journals and academic books.
    These include:

    J. Stacey & T.J. Biblarz, (How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter?, 66 Am. Soc. Rev. 159 (2001)
    Perrin & Committee, supra note 46
    C.J. Patterson, Family Relationships of Lesbians and Gay Men, 62 J. Marriage & Fam. 1052 (2000)
    N. Anderssen et al., Outcomes for Children with Lesbian or Gay Parents, 43 Scand. J. Psychol. 335 (2002)
    J. Pawelski et al., The Effects of Marriage, Civil Union, and Domestic Partnership Laws on the Health and Well-being of Children, 118 Pediatrics 349, 358-60 (2006),

    and recent empirical studies:

    , e.g., J.L. Wainright et al., Psychosocial Adjustment, School Outcomes, and Romantic Relationships of Adolescents with Same-Sex Parents, 75 Child Dev. 1886, 1895 (2004).

    As a recent article summarizes, “empirical research to date has consistently failed to find linkages between children’s well-being and the sexual orientation of their parents.” G.M. Herek, Legal Recognition of Same-Sex Relationships in the United States: A Social Science Perspective, 61 Am. Psychol. 607, 614 (2006).

    http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/s...riae_Brief.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  6. #606
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Please point out the fallacy? It has been a huge success for a very long time. You can ignore this as irrelevant, but it does not by any means make it a fallacy.
    Saying it "has been a huge success FOR A LONG TIME" and using this as the sole basis for proving your position is the fallacy. Just because something has been done and successful for a long time, does NOT disprove the equal success of alternate options. In order to do that, you have to have comparative studies that demonstrate that one is better than the other. You have provided none of that. Until you do. your position is an appeal to tradition logical fallacy.



    OK you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

    I am saying it has been a huge success for a long time. It has shown to be the best, period. It may not be by any huge margin, but it is still the optimal family. This includes the ability to breed and raise a successful child into adulthood.

    Other variables exist, but this does not change the rate of success vs any other way in the history of mankind.
    Let me show you what you did and why you are in error. First you say this:

    I am saying it has been a huge success for a long time.
    Not disputable. It has been a huge success for a long time. But then you say this:

    It has shown to be the best, period.
    This is your error. You are making a comparison, here. Unless you have some evidence of this... which you have not presented as of yet, your comment above is a meaningless statement. "It's always been successful" proves zilch when doing a comparison. All it proves is that it has been successful. It says NOTHING about better or worse. For that, you need to provide evidence.



    Only in your book.
    No, only in reality.



    My position is based on history and fact. Yours is based on a few studies that prove a same sex couple can successfully raise a child. This does not make it the best solution. That would be like saying a single parent home is as good as a 2 parent home because single parents have raised successful children. The single parent home is not optimal.
    This furthers your non-logic. I have not said that children in a single parent home are raised as well as those in a two parent home. Studies show this to be not true. I am not making a claim based on "a few successes". My claim is based on lots of successes and the percentages of those successes. Children reared by single sex parents do as well as those reared in traditional households. Evidence shows that. So far, all you have demonstrated is that your position relies on logical fallacies. Until you provide some empirical evidence that meets statistical standards, you don't have a leg to stand on.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    OK becoming to much to respond to, so I will summarize my position and we can go from there.

    I have no problem and support gay couples adopting even more so than single parent adoptions. I have stated this multiple times throughout the thread.
    OK... I have seen you be consistent with this and I have no problem with it.

    I agree with the experts and a proven history that a male, female home is the optimal parental arrangement for child rearing. This has nothing at all to do with gays adopting or raising a family.
    Except you are incorrect. EXPERTS have demonstrated that children reared by single sex parents do as well as those in traditional families. But I'll tell you what. You keep making this claim. Please provide links to the "experts" who have made the claim that you are making.

    I wait with anticipation for your links.

    Different levels of good exist.
    Absolutely.

    You people seem to think everything is all or nothing. Get over it.
    Please show where I have said anything like that. All I'm doing is demonstrating that your position is invalid. Your resistance to accepting factual information is most confusing, but I wait with anticipation for links to your experts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #608
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Does the person or persons who are spamming the poll attached to this thread actually think it has ANY meaning whatsoever now that it has obviously been co-opted by idiots?

    For that matter, that it had any meaning before?

    Everybody and their great uncle can vote on it as many times as they wish.

    So...please, stop your idiocy...if you are even reading this.
    Education.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Does the person or persons who are spamming the poll attached to this thread actually think it has ANY meaning whatsoever now that it has obviously been co-opted by idiots?

    For that matter, that it had any meaning before?

    Everybody and their great uncle can vote on it as many times as they wish.

    So...please, stop your idiocy...if you are even reading this.
    This is one of the reasons why, if you want an accurate poll, always make public.
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    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    One of the cool things about being a mod is that, even if the poll is private, I can tell who voted for what. Currently, there are 59 non-legitimate "NO" votes and 122 non-legitimate "YES" votes. That means the accurate vote is...

    NO....49
    Yes... 8
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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