View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #571
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The long history and success of the nuclear family begs to differ.

    I was talking about extended family only. So the rest is irrelevant as far as my comment goes.

    You are offering nothing but speculation yourself? SO why does it give your opinion more weight than my own. It does not in reality.

    This does not change the fact that the nuclear family is a success and has been for a very long time. The dynamic is excellent and optimal anything else is not, period.

    These variables are completely irrelevant. We are talking optimal, not abusive. So gay couples can't be abusive? That is nothing but a red Herring fallacy.

    In your opinion. History begs to differ.
    You seriously think the nuclear family has been a success? With the divorce rates and serial monogamy? With the step families and single parents? You think it has been a success with the astronomical cost to society that emerged from supporting this artificial family structure over the natural tendency of humans to form tribes?

    You have apparently never taken Sociology 101. The nuclear family is one of the leading decays of society.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As soon as there's a credible study concluding such, it will be a slam dunk. The religious opinion will be supported with good science and anti-theist trolls silenced.

    Until then it remains a weak spot.
    Thats the problem, it will not be done. The success of the family as it is, is self evident.

    But success accounts for nothing I guess. Because a study done in the last 20 years says different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  3. #573
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    A gender roll which is not necessarily missing because the couple are the same-sex.


    Warning: the following is speculation and can not be accurately interpreted to be a claim!!


    We find more variation within a sex than between them, so a same-sex couple could fill the rolls themselves. Is this actually occurring? Does a feminine lesbian and a 'butch' lesbian couple rely on extended family less than 2 feminine lesbians?

    Alternatively, what about a feminine hetero woman who marries a so-called metro-sexual man. Both parents being generally soft, do they rely on extended family more so than the above mentioned feminine/butch lesbian couple?



    Well, I was looking for detailed information on the roll the extended family plays with each of these dynamics. If you don't have data for it, that's fine. I don't expect you or anyone else to answer my questions and I hope you don't feel that I'm stomping my foot and sticking out my lip when I ask them.
    I don't see how that would be able to be studied without being very ridiculous and discriminatory with the questioning.

    I don't think it matters. I think a kid(s) will turn out fine with only one sex of parenting involved.

    Lots of kids grow up primarily in single parent households and they are fine. It's where you get the majority of care that has the biggest influence. Aunt Edna or Uncle Harry that see you once a week for a half hour aren't going to provide much of anything but niceties.
    "It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You seriously think the nuclear family has been a success? With the divorce rates and serial monogamy?
    Thanks to the break down of our moral character among other things.

    Marriage has become a joke because of quickie marriages and divorces etc. After the government got involved it spelled the end.

    If you look at other country's where it is still a religious institution, it is very different.

    Of course you are also trying to deny the success of thousands of years for the last 50 or so in the industrialized secular world.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    With the step families and single parents? You think it has been a success with the astronomical cost to society that emerged from supporting this artificial family structure over the natural tendency of humans to form tribes?
    Again we have gay singles with children and step children. That means little in the context of this discussion.

    As for the rest, it's a shame we have in the last 50 or so years degraded and made marriage into a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You have apparently never taken Sociology 101. The nuclear family is one of the leading decays of society.
    You have got to be kidding?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Here are the factors in child-rearing that I can think of, in order according to the importance I place on them:

    1. Parenting ability: As in, the ability to raise a child who is well adjusted. Apply your own meanings to well adjusted, it likely comes to the same thing in the end.
    2. Knowledge level: The more a parent knows about how the world works the better. Probably ties in with parenting ability.
    3. Availability of extended family: The higher this is, the better.
    4. Wealth: Face it, in the current system, the correct amount of wealth (IMO, not to much and not to little) has a definite effect on the raising of a child.
    5. Time: The availability of time to spend with your child. Directly tied to the wealth level.
    6. Several more things I haven't thought of: Stuff and things.
    7. The sex of the parents: Somewhere near the bottom of my list.

    I did not include the lack of abusive/etc. tendencies because it’s obvious to me that no person worthy of the term “parent” would act in such a manner. Thus not even applicable.
    Education.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Thanks to the break down of our moral character among other things.

    Marriage has become a joke because of quickie marriages and divorces etc. After the government got involved it spelled the end.

    If you look at other country's where it is still a religious institution, it is very different.

    Of course you are also trying to deny the success of thousands of years for the last 50 or so in the industrialized secular world.
    The extended family has always been superior to the nuclear family, simply because the nuclear family breaks apart half the time. The nuclear family can only exist because the government is involved and has provided the incentives of marriage. Anywhere that marriage is purely a religious institution, people live in extended families, not nuclear families. Nuclear families are artificial and are supported by the government.

    Think about it. For countless millennium, a person's parents would look after them until they reached adulthood, then they would help look after the grand kids, then as they got old, their children and grandchildren would look after them. That was the successful model. And what did we replace it with? Social Security and nursing homes!

    The reality is that the nuclear family is a product of the industrial revolution. People moved away from their family farms into smaller units that were easier to support with factory work. Marriage was incentized by the government to increase production by supporting this family structure.

    Again we have gay singles with children and step children. That means little in the context of this discussion.
    You are failing to acknowledge that nuclear families tend to have a half life. They fall apart often and reconfigure into less optimal situations. This may result from anything from a death in the family to a financial necessity. It may have absolutely nothing to do with the moral character of the individuals involved.

    As for the rest, it's a shame we have in the last 50 or so years degraded and made marriage into a joke.
    Marriage has decayed because we are no longer in the industrial era. We are in the information age and marriage is going to have to change, just like it has several time before, in order to be beneficial again.

    You have got to be kidding?
    You are clearly ignorant of the demographics and history of marriage. I'm sorry, but the facts are a lot more relevant than your opinoin and assumptions on the issue. It would do you good to educate yourself more on this before you jump in.

  7. #577
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Here are the factors in child-rearing that I can think of, in order according to the importance I place on them:

    1. Parenting ability: As in, the ability to raise a child who is well adjusted. Apply your own meanings to well adjusted, it likely comes to the same thing in the end.
    2. Knowledge level: The more a parent knows about how the world works the better. Probably ties in with parenting ability.
    3. Availability of extended family: The higher this is, the better.
    4. Wealth: Face it, in the current system, the correct amount of wealth (IMO, not to much and not to little) has a definite effect on the raising of a child.
    5. Time: The availability of time to spend with your child. Directly tied to the wealth level.
    6. Several more things I haven't thought of: Stuff and things.
    7. The sex of the parents: Somewhere near the bottom of my list.

    I did not include the lack of abusive/etc. tendencies because it’s obvious to me that no person worthy of the term “parent” would act in such a manner. Thus not even applicable.
    Demographically speaking. Same sex couples are at a small advantage over heterosexual couples when it comes to the first 5, simply because most homosexual couples choose when they have kids, and a good share of heterosexual couples do not. This allows homosexual couples to get more established and prepared for raising children.

  8. #578
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The extended family has always been superior to the nuclear family, simply because the nuclear family breaks apart half the time. The nuclear family can only exist because the government is involved and has provided the incentives of marriage. Anywhere that marriage is purely a religious institution, people live in extended families, not nuclear families. Nuclear families are artificial and are supported by the government.

    Think about it. For countless millennium, a person's parents would look after them until they reached adulthood, then they would help look after the grand kids, then as they got old, their children and grandchildren would look after them. That was the successful model. And what did we replace it with? Social Security and nursing homes!

    The reality is that the nuclear family is a product of the industrial revolution. People moved away from their family farms into smaller units that were easier to support with factory work. Marriage was incentized by the government to increase production by supporting this family structure.
    I agree with this. I guess I should have defined "nuclear family" as I was using it. It means for me immediate family. Parents, children, grand parents etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    are failing to acknowledge that nuclear families tend to have a half life. They fall apart often and reconfigure into less optimal situations. This may result from anything from a death in the family to a financial necessity. It may have absolutely nothing to do with the moral character of the individuals involved.
    Already clarified this.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Marriage has decayed because we are no longer in the industrial era. We are in the information age and marriage is going to have to change, just like it has several time before, in order to be beneficial again.
    It has not changed in the last 5000 years. The change from industrial to information has little to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You are clearly ignorant of the demographics and history of marriage.
    I think you are clearly ignorant of the history as well. Or in the least are willfully blind.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I'm sorry, but the facts are a lot more relevant than your opinoin and assumptions on the issue. It would do you good to educate yourself more on this before you jump in.
    You jumped in and I am correct. As I said history bears me out, not you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #579
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Demographically speaking. Same sex couples are at a small advantage over heterosexual couples when it comes to the first 5, simply because most homosexual couples choose when they have kids, and a good share of heterosexual couples do not. This allows homosexual couples to get more established and prepared for raising children.
    Your statement is misleading.

    Part of the "Parenting Ability" I spoke of includes knowing when you shouldn't be having another kid...
    Education.

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  10. #580
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I agree with this. I guess I should have defined "nuclear family" as I was using it. It means for me immediate family. Parents, children, grand parents etc.
    That is an extended family. The moment you include grandparents, it is not a nuclear family. If you wish to redefine it arbitrarily then have at it, but it makes your argument irrelevant.


    It has not changed in the last 5000 years. The change from industrial to information has little to do with it.
    Wow, you really have no clue. People lived with their extended families on farms for generations before the industrial revolution. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. The nuclear family: mom, dad, and 2.5 kids, emerged only within the last hundred years or so. The family structure that existed for thousands of years before that was tribes and villages, which were composed of mostly extended families. In fact marriage was originally a means by which one family could establish better relations with another. Father's treated their daughters as property purely for this purpose. Marriage has always been defined by the economics. That is why it changed during the industrial revolution when people left their agricultural villages to work in factories and had to have smaller families in order to get by. The government incentivized it to increase productivity.

    I think you are clearly ignorant of the history as well. Or in the least are willfully blind.
    Feel free to provide any facts to support this argument. Or at least challenge mine.

    You jumped in and I am correct. As I said history bears me out, not you.
    Correct about what? You changed the definition of nuclear family to extended family. You clearly had no clue that the nuclear family was artificially created by the government to support industry. You had no clue that the structure was inferior to the extended family. You had no clue that much of the decay society faces now due to marriage is because of your resistance to changing it to fit the economics of our current era so it is still beneficial. You just pretended that the good ol' Bible was talking about a Simpsons style home instead of the tribes and villages that actually were the reality at that time.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 05-06-10 at 05:47 PM.

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