View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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    186 43.26%
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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #551
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Ahem:


    I'm not sure how many more qualifiers you require before speculation is not seen as stating a claim, but I neither care nor am I willing to include more.
    Here's your claim, Jerry:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's my understanding that the reason same-sex couples can raise perfectly fine children is due to their turning to extended family for the other sex's contributions.
    Can you tell me where this understanding comes from?
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  2. #552
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    I'm not even sure why this is important. Wouldn't it be a good thing if gay couples were more reliant on their extended families than hetero families given that children raised within extended families almost always have a better outcome than those who aren't? If anything, it would be a benefit to a child to be raised by a same sex couple for this reason.

  3. #553
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's clearly not according to me.

    I wasn't alive during the last few million years where everyone else decided what marriage was going to be about. I wasn't in all these different cultures all over the globe.

    This is basic Sociology. The key term is "cultural universal". No matter where you go, marriage is about socializing children just like funerals are about marking the end of life.
    The problem with your argument is that it does not allow for society to examine how it is doing something and why. It relies on the concept of "this is how it has always been done, everywhere". Not only is this wrong, but it also doesn't actually examine why we actually get married, when we decide to get married, or who we decide to marry.

    The reason saying that "it has always been done this way, everywhere" is wrong, is because although almost, if not all, societies have only had heterosexual marriage up til the past decade or so, most societies have not limited heterosexual marriage to just be for raising children. Some cultures and/or religions might still make such limitations, but they would be very few.

    Also, although there is some biologically instinctive attraction involved with picking a spouse, it is not the rule that a person will fall in love and wish to marry the person that they feel that they would make the best children with as a couple. It is also not the rule that a couple always chooses the most beneficial time for the child, to start having kids. Most procreation happens, whether planned or accidental, because the parents were thinking of themselves, not the actual welfare of their offspring (and I don't want to be taken wrong here, because I don't think that this makes most people bad parents, the most ideal time may never come if you just wait for it, so sometimes you just have to make the most of what you have).

    Many people do not get married to someone because they are ready to have children with that person. Many marriages happen with little thought about when during that marriage children will be brought in, if ever. And many people who can't produce children with each other, have happy and fulfilling marriages for themselves.

    Legally recognized marriage in the US is what we are discussing, and unless the US government declares why they only recognize heterosexual marriages with a sound reasoning behind their explanation and marriage laws that reflect that reasoning specifically, then the US government is discriminating against homosexual couples by not federally recognizing homosexual marriage and enforcing the Full Faith and Credit Clause.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #554
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Would not the supposition be that extended family provides the missing gender role?
    A gender roll which is not necessarily missing because the couple are the same-sex.


    Warning: the following is speculation and can not be accurately interpreted to be a claim!!


    We find more variation within a sex than between them, so a same-sex couple could fill the rolls themselves. Is this actually occurring? Does a feminine lesbian and a 'butch' lesbian couple rely on extended family less than 2 feminine lesbians?

    Alternatively, what about a feminine hetero woman who marries a so-called metro-sexual man. Both parents being generally soft, do they rely on extended family more so than the above mentioned feminine/butch lesbian couple?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I have no evidence to support this notion, but both hetero and homo families rely on extended family for a variety of reasons and that is the only one that I can think of that may require a homo family to rely moreso on their extended family.
    Well, I was looking for detailed information on the roll the extended family plays with each of these dynamics. If you don't have data for it, that's fine. I don't expect you or anyone else to answer my questions and I hope you don't feel that I'm stomping my foot and sticking out my lip when I ask them.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Jerry, you are being civil....and it is scaring me.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The problem with your argument is that it does not allow for society to examine how it is doing something and why. It relies on the concept of "this is how it has always been done, everywhere".
    That has never been any part of my argument, ever.

    You believe that I'm making an argument from traditional authority. If that's how I'm coming across then I need to find another way to word my argument.

    I'll have to give it some thought, but from where I'm standing I'm making an empirical observation based on solid science. Every variation of marriage always serves the same purpose just like every variation of a funeral always serve the same purpose. This is not because "that's the way we've always don it", it's because this is what this activity is for.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-06-10 at 04:22 PM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, your statement is false. It's success in the past is irrelevant when doing comparisons.
    No real comparison has been done. I have seen some of the studies. Most were not even long enough to jump to any real conclusions and are the equivalent of an educated guess.

    The success of the family unit is absolutely relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Comparative studies have yielded similar results: children raised in two parent households, regardless of the sex of each parents, do equally as well.
    A few hundred vs a few hundred billion raised by a mother and a father.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So, your statement is inaccurate.
    My comment is completly accurate.

    I tell you what, Jerry made a good point. As soon as they do a study where the extended family is not a variable, you may be able to say that.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Jerry, you are being civil....and it is scaring me.
    I'm pissed about something in RL and trying not to let it leak onto the forum...that's usually when I earn points

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Blackdog, you just made a concession I don't think you intended to make by your request. You have just admitted that it is more important to a child's welfare that they have extended family involved in their life than it is that they are being raised by an opposite sex couple or same sex couple. Think about it. If the variable that is most important is the degree of extended family involvement, then you just conceded the entire issue of the parenting ability of same sex couples.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Here's your claim, Jerry:

    Can you tell me where this understanding comes from?
    See I included the "it's my understanding" so that it wouldn't sound like a claim. Oh well, I guess I need an English comp class.

    That's how I understood previous studies linked to in these discussions. I accept the fact that I'm likely not recalling the data accurately which is why I'm looking for clarification.

    If Blackdog's religious opinion has merit, then an appropriate study examining this interaction should shed some light on how it's accurate...assuming such a study has ever been don.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-06-10 at 04:30 PM.

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