View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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  • No

    186 43.26%
  • Yes, explain

    244 56.74%
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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #311
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    This issue is based on an argument that tradition takes precedence over progress.

    You could easily make the distinction that humans were never meant to drive cars, simply because that's how its always been.

    How about some change, real positive change.
    It's conservative instinct to preserve the status quo and progressive instinct to seek positive change. That is the most fundamental political divide of any society.

    But this goes deeper. It is the conservatives in this case who are trying to change something, but they are unaware that they are doing it. They are trying to define marriage by a tradition rather than by the reason for its existence. Marriage exists as an institution of commitment to provide stable relationships for the purpose of promoting welfare in society and good homes for children. But conservatives wish to define it as a legal union between a man and woman. They do so in order to exclude homosexuals, whom they see as deviants and sinners, from having relationships with equal recognition in society. Hence, they have defined marriage as an institution of exclusion rather than one of inclusion and thereby cheapen it. Rather than marriage being about how loving, committed, and capable of providing a good home for children a couple may be, the factor that conservatives wish to stress is the gender of each partner.

    Liberals aren't changing anything about the nature of marriage by allowing same sex couples to marry. Liberals are embracing what marriage is and are trying to protect it from being redefined by a tradition of procreation.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 05-04-10 at 02:19 AM.

  2. #312
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    1.) yes some religions do define it that way and they still would be able too. The law would NOT change the "religious" definition of anything therefore it would STILL be sacred to the people it currently is.
    Of course it would.

    The difference is, adding gay unions to legal marriage would effectively "force" those who believed otherwise to accept it as a valid marriage, if only in the legal sense.

    If they hold marriage, the word and the definition that goes with it, as a sacred part of their religious belief, then legally defining it as something other could potentially be argued as a violation of their constitutional rights.

    Much simpler to rename all legal marriages to something else, thus eliminating the whole issue.

    For some, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    2.) sorry religion can in fact DENY you marriage under their religion as you say, a church can choose not to marry ANYBODY they don't want to and the law wouldn't change that. I have a friend that had to go to 3 churches before he could get married and then only if he took classes and converted. There was nothing he could legally do about because the church reserves that right based on religion.
    That's what I just said...

    And of course he couldn't do anything about it legally, any laws that allowed him to would violate the constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    3.) Again i get what you are saying but it shouldn't be needed, no religion is trying to stop other marriages not based on their religion so why do it in this case. Changing the word sidesteps equal rights IMO
    No.

    It doesn't.

    As long as it is changed so that every legal union, no matter the sex of the partners, is called the same thing legally.

    The religions can then hash out who will allow gays to be married under their religious rules.

    Completely equal under the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    4.) again they don't have to accept it except legally and all religions already have to do that for many things because this is AMERICA first. Legal trumps religion on certain things. For example you are a sinner by some religions if you drink, have premarital sex or masturbate. But those things aren't illegal right? Some religions don't want you to eat meat at certain time, food places are still open? right
    Of course. Any laws that dictated such things on a religious basis would violate the constitution.

    In the same token, any laws that dictate to a religion ALSO violate the constitution.

    Thus, if a law dictates that the word "marriage", in legal usage, is redefined as including same-sex unions, it could and probably will (if such is enacted) be argued as a violation of the US constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    5.) like i said in the OP its fine to believe that but once you try to stop it IMO its wrong because you are in fact forcing your religious beliefs on others and acting like you are not a hypocrite (not really YOU but you know what i mean )
    Quite.
    Which is why I will never support a law banning the completely legal religious marriages between two persons of the same sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    6.) I agree 100% it is unconstitutional and it will eventually change because we get smarted as time goes on certain things, mainly discrimination
    Uhh...What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    7.) I agree to a point but would have no argument for gays who said calling it something different is still discrimination. Now this example is just humor and stretching but just giving an example for you to see. OK Mr Obama you can be president but were gonna call you something else instead, you just get all the rules or president but we cant call you that. Now when somebody else fully whit becomes president we will go back to using the "word" president. Again yes i know that's a crazy example but I'm just saying it makes it easy to see why some find that offensive oppressive and discriminatory

    so that's what i see gays thinking is wrong with that
    That is a completely unrelated and unreasonable comparison.

    At no point did I suggest that we call gay marriage something else under the law, separate but equal (yes, I used that deliberately) from heterosexual marriages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    8.) What I'm saying is that right now there is only ONE type of marriage, the LEGAL. The religion is secondary and isn't needed. SO currently they aren't separate and still called marriage with or with out religion so nothing would change.
    No.

    There are currently two types of "marriage".

    The religious kind, which includes all religious ceremonies performed for the purpose of joining two persons as one under the eyes of their (insert entity here). As well as any two persons who just decide they will consider themselves married under their religious beliefs.

    And the legal kind, which is a legal/financial contract. One of its purposes is to legalize the tax breaks that the government wishes to extend to people. Those tax breaks are in place to encourage people to get married, creating citizens who are more stable, and to encourage the production of children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    9.) But there is a right to marry and equality and that isn't being preserved. I do understand what you are saying that since it wasn't allowed before than preserve is the wrong word but equality and marriage is allowed and is being denied to a certain group.
    There is no right to marry, at least legal marriage.

    That is a privilege that the government has extended for the purpose of encouraging stable families/financial situations and procreation.

    Religious marriage is a right, as part of the right to freedom of religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    10.) Just donít see how keeping the word the same effect them at all. Right now I could marry anybody I want with out religion and they donít have to accept it except legally and thatís fine. No need to change that just because it gay marriage,
    Depending on the area you live, you cannot currently marry anyone you want.

    Like, for example, you cannot marry your mother.

    And itís the forcing of exception through legal means that is the issue I see here.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  3. #313
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    If I think and feel that something is morally wrong, then I think it's absolutely acceptable to use the government to try to put a stop to it. That is what government is for.
    Wow, so if you thought it was wrong for women to attend school, you would think it was OK to have the government stop it? The government is there to enforce morality, your morality? Wow!
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  4. #314
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    Wow, so if you thought it was wrong for women to attend school, you would think it was OK to have the government stop it?
    Yes. The more important question, then, would be why some people believe such stupid things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    The government is there to enforce morality, your morality? Wow!
    Yes. That is the government's function. I will note that you do not complain when the government enforces your morality.
    Last edited by Korimyr the Rat; 05-04-10 at 08:24 AM.

  5. #315
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Christian marriage does not go back more than 2000 years. Tribal marriage and Christan marriage are fundamentally different.
    We were talking about marriage in general. He was talking about gay marriage going back 2000 years.

    No one mentioned anything about Christian marriage.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 05-04-10 at 11:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #316
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I brought it up because it is the primary reasoning behind the make up of the family. You did not shoot down anything. What you have shown is why our society is crumbling around us.
    How is reproduction the cause of our societal collapse? I hardly think that is anywhere close to the truth. We are at a stable population, slight growth when you include immigration. So it seems that we're rather good on that front. Again, shot down. You don't have proper argument to uphold your "biology" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    When the importance of the family, or the mother and father are regulated to nothing by science, our society will slowly eat itself alive with moral decay etc. That is exactly what is happening now.
    No, that's not what is happening now, that's just silly. There is still an importance placed on family and same sex marriage will do nothing against that other than create more families. When there's more orphans than families to adopt, we leave the realm of "it must be 1 dude and 1 chick"; those kids need loving homes. And while we could wax and wan all day over heterosexual and homosexual couples as parents, the fact is that there is just not enough sets of parents right now available to us in order to adopt.

    What you have here is nothing more than hyperbole, and you've yet to be able to support any form of biology argument.
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    How is reproduction the cause of our societal collapse? I hardly think that is anywhere close to the truth. We are at a stable population, slight growth when you include immigration. So it seems that we're rather good on that front. Again, shot down. You don't have proper argument to uphold your "biology" argument.
    Swing! and a miss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, that's not what is happening now, that's just silly. There is still an importance placed on family and same sex marriage will do nothing against that other than create more families. When there's more orphans than families to adopt, we leave the realm of "it must be 1 dude and 1 chick"; those kids need loving homes. And while we could wax and wan all day over heterosexual and homosexual couples as parents, the fact is that there is just not enough sets of parents right now available to us in order to adopt.

    What you have here is nothing more than hyperbole, and you've yet to be able to support any form of biology argument.
    Strike 2!
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    That's all you have left in the tank then? Fairly pathetic, but whatever. Come back when you have an argument.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's all you have left in the tank then? Fairly pathetic, but whatever. Come back when you have an argument.
    You are completely missing my point and not even trying to see it and I am in no way being obtuse. So I have given up trying to explain it to you yet again. After the 5 or 6th time it gets old.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 05-04-10 at 11:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    You didn't explain it once. You threw out the biology thing, I stated exactly why it's not proper argument. You then went into some tirade about family structure and the "collapse of society", and I pointed out how you were Chicken Little-ing it up and how your argument held no water. That's it. You're trying so desperately to disengage because I think you know you've been beat on this one. But it's so thinly veiled and blatant as to be just a pathetic attempt at deflection.

    As I said, come back when you have an actual argument.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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