View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1641
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    You are interpreting that to fit your agenda.
    No, I am taking what it said as quoted. YOU are the one interpreting it to fit your agenda.

    What it tells me is that there is not natural evidence supporting lack of choice in regards to homosexuality.
    See, it says this about homosexuality AND heterosexuality. You are omitting a part because it contradicts YOUR agenda. For someone who has claimed to have analyzed research, this would be considered a very poor type of analysis. Ignoring information just because you don't like it. Shame.

    I understand where you are confused, since it doesn't say that the study specifically say heterosexuality is natural.
    This is not confusion on my part. It is ignoring what the study DOES say on yours.

    However, this statement combined with human anatomy, natural selection, the history of ur species and many other factors is proof that homosexuality is natural and heterosexuality (which has no natural function) is not.
    Back to this. I thought we had resolved this issue. OK... firstly, please link me to the designer's website, or anything that shows what, precisely, human anatomy was designed for. Since we know that many parts of anatomy have several functions, it is key to go to the source for this information. Secondly, I already showed how the natural selection argument does not hold water. There are certainly reasons for homosexuality in nature, both with humans and with non-humans. Further, a function can be natural diversity, like eye color. And thirdly, since both occur in nature, and both are have functions, both are natural.

    Anything else?
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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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  2. #1642
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, I am taking what it said as quoted. YOU are the one interpreting it to fit your agenda.



    See, it says this about homosexuality AND heterosexuality. You are omitting a part because it contradicts YOUR agenda. For someone who has claimed to have analyzed research, this would be considered a very poor type of analysis. Ignoring information just because you don't like it. Shame.



    This is not confusion on my part. It is ignoring what the study DOES say on yours.



    Back to this. I thought we had resolved this issue. OK... firstly, please link me to the designer's website, or anything that shows what, precisely, human anatomy was designed for. Since we know that many parts of anatomy have several functions, it is key to go to the source for this information. Secondly, I already showed how the natural selection argument does not hold water. There are certainly reasons for homosexuality in nature, both with humans and with non-humans. Further, a function can be natural diversity, like eye color. And thirdly, since both occur in nature, and both are have functions, both are natural.

    Anything else?
    No, unless you can prove you have some evidence that says homosexuality is not a choice.

  3. #1643
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, unless you can prove you have some evidence that says homosexuality is not a choice.
    Please show where I made this claim. I'll give you a hint... I asked you to show where I made this claim, yesterday, and you couldn't find it. I haven't made it. I have consistently said the same thing. We do not know how sexual orientation formulates. Researchers state that it is probably a combination of biology, genetics, hormonal chemicals, and environment, but there is nothing conclusive. I have said this, or something like this, repeatedly.

    So, since I've never made the claim that homosexuality or heterosexuality is a choice or not, since we have no conclusive evidence proving either, your question is irrelevant.

    So, anything else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #1644
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Please show where I made this claim. I'll give you a hint... I asked you to show where I made this claim, yesterday, and you couldn't find it. I haven't made it. I have consistently said the same thing. We do not know how sexual orientation formulates. Researchers state that it is probably a combination of biology, genetics, hormonal chemicals, and environment, but there is nothing conclusive. I have said this, or something like this, repeatedly.

    So, since I've never made the claim that homosexuality or heterosexuality is a choice or not, since we have no conclusive evidence proving either, your question is irrelevant.

    So, anything else?
    Isn't the title of the site debatepolitics.com? And the title of this thread is "gay marriage, is it right to stop it?" My opinion is yes, it's right to stop it. You've offered no credible evidence that tells me my opinion is incorrect. I am seriously anti-discrimination. I believe that every consenting adult has the right to do whatever they like in the privacy of their own home, and that society dictates what is acceptable in public. Were there compelling evidence that showed me that homosexuality was not a choice then I would determine that it was only discrimination that stood against legalizing gay marriage. I don't believe that to be true, and all that's been offered over the last few pages are personal interpretations of studies that are claimed to say something they do not. You've certainly offered no compelling evidence to prove that I, and the majority of the American voters, are wrong on this issue. To be honest, I wish you had.

  5. #1645
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    If you're anti-discrimination, Mac, on what basis do you oppose gay marriage then?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Of course your right. My point is if we can redefine marriage, we can redefine pedophilia as well as anything else. Why would anyone want to? For the same reasons they want to redefine marriage...for their own benefit.
    That's a horrible argument that simply doesn't make sense, Mac.



    What I've gotten out of this, Mac, is that you oppose gay marriage and while you claim you're anti-discriminatory, I don't see that actually coming through.

    You seem to oppose gay marriage on the basis that it's gay marriage and nothing more.

    I think you try to present yourself as logical and open, empirical and pragmatic, but when your arguments are finally pulled out and examined, they don't seem to pass those tests of reason.
    Last edited by Alastor; 06-17-10 at 07:55 AM.

  6. #1646
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Isn't the title of the site debatepolitics.com? And the title of this thread is "gay marriage, is it right to stop it?"
    These are both true statements.

    My opinion is yes, it's right to stop it.
    OK.

    You've offered no credible evidence that tells me my opinion is incorrect.
    You have offered no credible evidence that tells me that your opinion is correct. And I've just gotten started. I can post TONS of stuff that demonstrates why GM benefits society. I've just been focusing on demonstrating that your positions have no merit.

    I am seriously anti-discrimination.
    Good. So am I. And I NEVER argue the pro-GM position from a discriminatory place. It's a loser argument.

    I believe that every consenting adult has the right to do whatever they like in the privacy of their own home, and that society dictates what is acceptable in public.
    I agree completely.

    Were there compelling evidence that showed me that homosexuality was not a choice then I would determine that it was only discrimination that stood against legalizing gay marriage.
    There is no compelling argument that shows that any sexual orientation is or is not a choice. This is why your argument has no merit. You cannot prove that heterosexuality is or is not a choice, either. Therefore, the discriminatory argument goes out the window. Just one of many reasons that I NEVER argue this issue from a discrimination standpoint. Both sides are simple to refute.

    I don't believe that to be true, and all that's been offered over the last few pages are personal interpretations of studies that are claimed to say something they do not.
    No, the studies have been show to be precisely what they say they are. The only one that is interpreting them with an agenda is you. You cannot claim that the discrimination argument does not work, when you cannot show that there is a difference in causation between heterosexuality and homosexuality. You have not proven this; in fact, you have proven the opposite. Therefore your "it is not discriminatory argument has been proven false at the essence.

    You've certainly offered no compelling evidence to prove that I, and the majority of the American voters, are wrong on this issue.
    I have proven that there is no logic in the reasoning behind your argument. The discrimination argument is a loser argument from both sides of the coin. I can beat it arguing either from the pro or from the anti side. I respect the American people voting in the direction they want,.. even if they are wrong, logically.

    To be honest, I wish you had.
    OK. Perhaps it is time for you to see MY position and argument. Folks around here have seen me do this several times before. My links are in Firefox, which is not formatting appropriately, so I have to reformat and rewrite (somewhat) for Safari. I will post MY position and evidence, tomorrow.

    For those who have seen me do this before, I apologize in advance for the repetition, but I have to do this periodically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    If you're anti-discrimination, Mac, on what basis do you oppose gay marriage then?
    edited for waste of my time.
    Last edited by mac; 06-17-10 at 08:27 AM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Again, this is in no way an adequate explanation...

    This is the one accurate sentence in your entire post.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    If you're anti-discrimination, Mac, on what basis do you oppose gay marriage then?



    That's a horrible argument that simply doesn't make sense, Mac.



    What I've gotten out of this, Mac, is that you oppose gay marriage and while you claim you're anti-discriminatory, I don't see that actually coming through.

    You seem to oppose gay marriage on the basis that it's gay marriage and nothing more.

    I think you try to present yourself as logical and open, empirical and pragmatic, but when your arguments are finally pulled out and examined, they don't seem to pass those tests of reason.
    Well, since you got me to answer your question and then went back afterwards and edited your post, I'll simply say this: It would be discrimination if it were based on something the person had no control over. I don't believe that to be the case regarding homosexuality. Therefore, it's not discrimination. As to your last statement, the same could be said for anyone else's positions here.
    Last edited by mac; 06-17-10 at 08:25 AM.

  10. #1650
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    First and foremost I believe that the American family is on the decline for many reasons, and that it is leading to the major weakness we see in our society. I feel that it affects everything from our economy, to our health, to our safety, etc.
    I agree, and the gist of my argument focuses on strengthening the family. As we know, the family is the basic building block to society. First the family.... then a community... then a society... then the country. So, if we strengthen the family, we strengthen the country.

    There are a few premises that my position operates from. They are all research based. We know that people who are married do better than those who are not. They live longer, they are healthier, and they are more stable monetarily and socially. This is a statistical analysis of data. It does not mean that ALL who are married do better, but it means that it is statistically significant that those who are married to better. As can be seen by this, a healthier, more stable family structure creates a healthier more stable country... as is shown by my building blocks progression.

    Next, why does government want to sanction/encourage marriage. Well. as we see, it creates a healthier, wealthier, more stable society, but the primary reason is for the successful rearing of children. One must remember that when a child is reared successfully, he/she becomes a healthy, productive, and stable member of that society/country and can the perpetuate this success. Again, we are talking statistics, here, not absolutes.

    Lastly, what we know about families and the rearing of children. Children do better in two parent households than they do in single parent households. Again, research is pretty clear on this, and again, this is statistically significant, not absolute.

    So, this is what we know. Marriage produces increased health, wealth, and stability. This progresses to the community, society, and country. We know that government has reasons to sanction and promote marriage... the factors I mentioned and, most importantly, the rearing of children. Finally, we know that children do better in two parent households than those in single parent households.

    So, why should government promote GM? Because, all of the information I just provided applies to both straight marrieds AND gay marrieds. The most important component of this is the rearing of children. As this is key in the continuation of a stable society, it behooves the government to promote scenarios that create the successful rearing of children. Currently, the research that has been done demonstrates that children reared by gay parents do equally as well as those by straight parents.

    For your viewing pleasure. The studies, with commentary:

    Here are the studies supporting my position that children in same-sex households do, at least, as well, overall as those in heterosexual households. Universally, studies show that not only do same-sex parents perform as well as straight parents (whose children would probably be biological), but do better at times. As far as children's emotional health goes, studies show that, on 4 important scales, there is little or no difference between children reared from single-sex families and those from straight parents (whose children would probably be biological). The 4 components examined were Gender Identity, Gender Role Behavior, Sexual Orientation, and Other Aspects of Personal Development, such as Social Relationships. One difference they did find was that children raised by single-sex parents tend to be more flexible and less closed-minded in their thinking.

    The studies I am posting are peer reviewed and reproducible, certainly based on the number that produce similar results.

    Studies:
    Anderssen, N., Amlie, C., & Ytteroy, E. A. (2002). Outcomes for children with lesbian or gay parents: A review of studies from 1978 to 2000. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 43, 335-351.

    Reviewed 23 empirical studies published between 1978 and 2000 on nonclinical children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers (one Belgian/Dutch, one Danish, three British, and 18 North American). Twenty studies reported on offspring of lesbian mothers, and three on offspring of gay fathers. The studies encompassed a total of 615 offspring (age range 1.5-44 yrs.) of lesbian mothers or gay fathers and 387 controls, who were assessed by psychological tests, questionnaires, or interviews. Seven types of outcomes were found to be typical: emotional functioning, sexual preference, stigmatization, gender role behavior, behavioral adjustment, gender identity, and cognitive functioning. Children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers did not systematically differ from other children on any of the outcomes. The studies indicate that children raised by lesbian women do not experience adverse outcomes compared with other children. The same holds for children raised by gay men, but more studies should be done.
    615 offspring from gay parents; 387 controls from straight parents. No differences in 7 types of functioning.

    That's ONE.

    Gottman, J. S. (1990). Children of gay and lesbian parents. In F. W. Bozett & M. B. Sussman (Eds.), Homosexuality and family relations (pp. 177-196). New York: Harrington Park Press.

    Reviews research literature on children of homosexual (HS) parents, including comparisons with children of heterosexual parents. Children of HS parents did not appear deviant in gender identity, sexual orientation, or social adjustment. Issues that emerged during their upbringing related more to society's rejection of homosexuality than to poor parent-child relationships. Most social adjustment problems occurred in both groups and were commonly related to family history of divorce. Results are supported by J. Schwartz's (unpublished manuscript) investigation of the above variables in adult-aged daughters in relation to mothers' sexual orientations, with a focus on role modeling theory.
    No difference between children raised by gay parents vs. straight parents on 3 scales. Only issue was society's issue with homosexuality; parenting was a non-issue.

    That's TWO.

    Kleber, D. J., Howell, R. J., & Tibbits-Kleber, A. L. (1986). The impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases: A review of the literature. Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and Law, 14, 81-87.

    Reviews the literature on the impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases. As a result of the relatively high rate of divorce in the United States and the increasing awareness that many parents (an estimated 1.5 million) are homosexual, the courts and divorce mediators have become actively involved in child custody placement decisions involving homosexual parents. While custody decisions have tended to reflect stereotyped beliefs or fears concerning the detrimental effects of homosexual parenting practices on child development, the research literature provides no evidence substantiating these fears. Several specific custody issues are discussed as well as social factors relevant to lesbian motherhood.
    Interesting study. No significant issues when homosexual parents obtain custody when a divorce occurs.

    That's THREE.

    Victor, S. B., & Fish, M. C. (1995). Lesbian mothers and their children: A review for school psychologists. School Psychology Review, 24, 456-479.

    Reviews 56 studies (published from 1971 to 1994) on lesbian mothers and their children. Three main family patterns and some common misconceptions about these families are addressed. Research suggests there are no differences between children of lesbians and children of heterosexuals with regard to their emotional health, interpersonal relationships, sexual orientation, or gender development. Psychological adjustment and parenting skills were not significantly different for lesbian and heterosexual mothers. Implications for school psychology practice and training are discussed.
    No significant difference in important emotional health issues between children raised by lesbian parents vs. straight parents.

    That's FOUR.

    Bigner, J. J., & Jacobsen, R. B. (1989b). Parenting behaviors of homosexual and heterosexual fathers. In F. W. Bozett (Ed.), Homosexuality and the family (pp. 173-186). New York: Harrington Park Press.

    Compared the responses of 33 homosexual (HMS) fathers with those of 33 heterosexual (HTS) fathers on the Iowa Parent Behavior Inventory. HMS subjects did not differ significantly from HTS subjects in their reported degree of involvement or in intimacy level with children. HMS subjects tended to be more strict and more responsive to children's needs and provided reasons for appropriate behavior to children more consistently than HTS subjects. Possible explanations for these similarities and differences in parenting styles are explored.
    Homosexual parenting vs. Heterosexual parenting is explored. No significant differences were found, though homosexual parents tended to be more strict, more responsive, and more consistent with their children.

    That's FIVE.

    Continued...
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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