View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1631
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You seem to be saying that I am claiming that this is directive. I am not.
    There is no natural benefit to the species provided by naturally occurring homosexuality, nothing you've said proves otherwise. Further, claiming the legitimacy of heterosexuality needs to be proven when it's obviously paramount to species propagation is ludicrous. Your assertions are without merit.

  2. #1632
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    There is no natural benefit to the species provided by naturally occurring homosexuality, nothing you've said proves otherwise.
    You do understand that there doesn't necessarily have to be a natural benefit. There is no natural benefit to blue eyes. There is no natural benefit to red hair. Natural diversity could be a reason... and that in itself is a benefit. Further, there are theories that suggest that homosexual behavior amongst animals MAY have a population growth basis and/or alter the "tone" of a population. Of course these are postulations, but since we do not know, conclusively, the causes of sexual orientation, we do not know, conclusively, the reasons for it's development.

    Further, claiming the legitimacy of heterosexuality needs to be proven when it's obviously paramount to species propagation is ludicrous. Your assertions are without merit.
    You are making the classic error of mistaking sexual orientation with sexual behavior. ANYONE can procreate... straights, gays, or other. This is BEHAVIOR. Why we are attracted to one of the same or other sex is what sexual orientation is about. This is ORIENTATION. I am still waiting for you to show links that demonstrate the physiological or genetic basis for heterosexuality. I am not disputing the need for heterosexual BEHAVIOR to propagate the species. But show the causes of heterosexual orientation. Links, please.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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  3. #1633
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    And once you kick the door open to redefine marriage to accomodate gays, what makes you think you can shut it again before the polygamists, polyamorists, and who knows what else get their foot in? Seriously, if you can justify gay marriage, it is hard to imagine how you could justify denying the same rights to polygamists, group-marriage, line-marriage, or basically about any damn thing anybody wants. The very same pro-SSM arguments would be used against you.
    Hence why, despite my support for same sex marriage, I typically find myself arguing against other people who support it. It isn't that I consider same sex marriage a threat to the institution of marriage-- as obviously, I do not-- but that I consider the arguments supporting it to be a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. The criteria should be fair. It shouldn't be arbitrarily decided by what might be right or wrong. A good, fair criteria is harm to people or property. Financial considerations are fair, especially when we are talking about the government.
    Fairness is subjective, and based on arbitrary ideals of right and wrong. It isn't enough to say that the criteria must be "fair"; obviously, people opposed to same sex marriage believe that the criteria are already fair. What is it that makes your criteria for marriage "fair" and Goshin's criteria "unfair"? For that matter, I have a number of criteria I believe are essential to preserving the functions of marriage-- chiefly relationship by affinity-- that apply to neither "harm to people or property" nor to "financial considerations". Is it unfair that, given the choice, I would not allow adopted cousins or siblings to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    In fact, I have said multiple times that I am not against polygamy, but would rather it be looked into before automatically made legal. From a logical standpoint, marriage becomes more complicated, especially when talking about civil marriage, the more people that the contract involves.
    If you'll excuse my wording, I'd say that's a fair position to take. Legalized polygamy would certainly demand more investigation than same sex marriage to ensure that it did not damage the institution of marriage. I have always considered same sex marriage to be a necessary first step towards legalizing polygamy-- and it was this fact that initially drove my support for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Second, matters of sexuality shouldn't be taught at all in school. It's simply not their business.
    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    And that is why teen pregnancy, and STD's are rampant within high school students.
    People seem to forget that the entire purpose of the welfare schools is to provide an education for the children of parents who are unwilling or unable to do so themselves. I'd argue that applies as much to sex education as it does to English, science, and mathematics. If you're not capable of educating your children in the fashion you consider appropriate-- and conforming to the minimum standards of society-- then you should have no choice but to settle for the education that the welfare schools provide. Of course, as adults within our society, people have every right to advocate for what they think the welfare schools should and should not teach, but people who strenuously object to what their neighbors have decided should take responsibility for the education of their own children.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I've debunked the "what about polygamists" slippery slope argument, several times in the past, Goshen. I'll go look for the post, if I need to, but in essence there is are two major differences. Polygamy is NOT a sexual orientation and though research has show the benefits of gay marriage, research has shown the opposite with plural marriage.
    I have never seen these arguments before, and I would be keenly interested in seeing them. Aside from forced marriage, which already is and should remain illegal, I am hard pressed to think of examples of how plural marriage would harm the institution of marriage or the people engaged in it.
    Last edited by Korimyr the Rat; 06-17-10 at 06:01 AM.

  4. #1634
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You do understand that there doesn't necessarily have to be a natural benefit. There is no natural benefit to blue eyes. There is no natural benefit to red hair. Natural diversity could be a reason... and that in itself is a benefit. Further, there are theories that suggest that homosexual behavior amongst animals MAY have a population growth basis and/or alter the "tone" of a population. Of course these are postulations, but since we do not know, conclusively, the causes of sexual orientation, we do not know, conclusively, the reasons for it's development.



    You are making the classic error of mistaking sexual orientation with sexual behavior. ANYONE can procreate... straights, gays, or other. This is BEHAVIOR. Why we are attracted to one of the same or other sex is what sexual orientation is about. This is ORIENTATION. I am still waiting for you to show links that demonstrate the physiological or genetic basis for heterosexuality. I am not disputing the need for heterosexual BEHAVIOR to propagate the species. But show the causes of heterosexual orientation. Links, please.
    The term "Sexual Orientation" is simply a description of ones self identified sexual preference and:

    "Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation - heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality -- is determined by any particular factor or factors. The evaluation of amici is that, although some of this research may be promising in facilitating greater understanding of the development of sexual orientation, it does not permit a conclusion based in sound science at the present time as to the cause or causes of sexual orientation, whether homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. See generally Am. Psychol. Ass'n, 7 Encyclopedia of Psychol. 260 (A.E. Kazdin ed., 2000); 2 Corsini ["The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Sciences . . . (W.E. Craighead & C.B. Nemeroff eds., 3d ed. 2001)"],"

    There being no evidence that there is any cause for any sexual orientation, it leaves me confident in relying on nature to determine what is right. Further, what you deemed homosexual acts by other animals has never been shown to be sexual in nature but social as no actual intercourse is performed.

  5. #1635
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    The term "Sexual Orientation" is simply a description of ones self identified sexual preference and:

    "Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation - heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality -- is determined by any particular factor or factors. The evaluation of amici is that, although some of this research may be promising in facilitating greater understanding of the development of sexual orientation, it does not permit a conclusion based in sound science at the present time as to the cause or causes of sexual orientation, whether homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. See generally Am. Psychol. Ass'n, 7 Encyclopedia of Psychol. 260 (A.E. Kazdin ed., 2000); 2 Corsini ["The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Sciences . . . (W.E. Craighead & C.B. Nemeroff eds., 3d ed. 2001)"],"
    Thank you. This is what I have been saying all along. This is precisely what most studies and research has determined. No one is really sure how sexual orientation is created.

    There being no evidence that there is any cause for any sexual orientation, it leaves me confident in relying on nature to determine what is right.
    And since homosexuality occurs in nature as does heterosexuality, that means you see both in the same light... in order to be consistent and logical of course. And, of course, the moment you place a value judgement on either orientation because of your perception of what their existence means in nature, you commit an appeal to nature logical fallacy.

    Further, what you deemed homosexual acts by other animals has never been shown to be sexual in nature but social as no actual intercourse is performed.
    No, that is not accurate. Plenty of animals have been documented to have had homosexual intercourse. Bisons, giraffes, and dolphins are just three that I can think of.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 06-17-10 at 06:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #1636
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Thank you. This is what I have been saying all along. This is precisely what most studies and research has determined. No one is really sure how sexual orientation is created.



    And since homosexuality occurs in nature as does heterosexuality, that means you see both in the same light... in order to be consistent and logical of course. And, of course, the moment you place a value judgement on either orientation because of your perception of what their existence means in nature, you commit an appeal to nature logical fallacy.



    No, that is not accurate. Plenty of animals have been documented to have had homosexual intercourse. Bisons, giraffes, and dolphins are just three that I can think of.
    No, I see it as a choice. I also see Heterosexuality as natural, and homosexuality as unnatural and there is no evidence available to prove me wrong. Therefore, it's up to society as a whole what it will accept.

  7. #1637
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, I see it as a choice.
    Nothing but your opinion. No conclusive proof, either way... interestingly enough, just as the information you posted in post #1634 said. So, you are contradicting your own information. Good to know.

    I also see Heterosexuality as natural, and homosexuality as unnatural and there is no evidence available to prove me wrong.
    Of course there is. Both occur in nature, therefore both are natural. That was REAL easy.

    Therefore, it's up to society as a whole what it will accept.
    This is always true, regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #1638
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Nothing but your opinion. No conclusive proof, either way... interestingly enough, just as the information you posted in post #1634 said. So, you are contradicting your own information. Good to know.



    Of course there is. Both occur in nature, therefore both are natural. That was REAL easy.



    This is always true, regardless.
    If a conclusion based on analysis of available evidence is an an opinion, then sure, it's my opinion.

  9. #1639
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    If a conclusion based on analysis of available evidence is an an opinion, then sure, it's my opinion.
    Yet, you already posted the available evidence. Here, I'll post it for you again, in case you forgot:

    The term "Sexual Orientation" is simply a description of ones self identified sexual preference and:

    "Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation - heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality -- is determined by any particular factor or factors. The evaluation of amici is that, although some of this research may be promising in facilitating greater understanding of the development of sexual orientation, it does not permit a conclusion based in sound science at the present time as to the cause or causes of sexual orientation, whether homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. See generally Am. Psychol. Ass'n, 7 Encyclopedia of Psychol. 260 (A.E. Kazdin ed., 2000); 2 Corsini ["The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Sciences . . . (W.E. Craighead & C.B. Nemeroff eds., 3d ed. 2001)"],"
    I placed the key point in bold. So, since this is a good analysis of the available evidence... as you posted, I must conclude that your opinion is the same as mine. That we do not know conclusively what determines sexual orientation... be it heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.

    Good to know we are on the same page at last.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #1640
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Yet, you already posted the available evidence. Here, I'll post it for you again, in case you forgot:



    I placed the key point in bold. So, since this is a good analysis of the available evidence... as you posted, I must conclude that your opinion is the same as mine. That we do not know conclusively what determines sexual orientation... be it heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.

    Good to know we are on the same page at last.
    You are interpreting that to fit your agenda. What it tells me is that there is not natural evidence supporting lack of choice in regards to homosexuality. I understand where you are confused, since it doesn't say that the study specifically say heterosexuality is natural. However, this statement combined with human anatomy, natural selection, the history of ur species and many other factors is proof that homosexuality is natural and heterosexuality (which has no natural function) is not.

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