View Poll Results: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

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Thread: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  1. #1561
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And you are actually probably right, and the harm that may come from legalized polygamy being abused would probably be worse than allowing those few that would actually like to just legitimately benefit from it to have it. It is definitely something that could not be done right now. I do see your point. But I still feel bad for those people who are truly polyamorous, however, since they don't seem to really be clamoring for polygamy to be legal anyway, it probably isn't a big deal.

    If you support the right to gay marriage, how can you not support the right to polygamous marriage? Don't they have a right to be happy too? Don't they have a right to love according to their nature and enjoy the benefits of marriage just like gays? Currently they are persecuted and outlawed, doesn't that qualify as injustice and discrimination? And aren't you stereotyping polygamous persons as child molesters just because of a handful of high-profile cases?

    I thought everyone was supposed to have equal access to the benefits of lawful marriage, and here I find you're discriminating against polygamists!

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  2. #1562
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Well, there you go....you don't think homosexuality infringes on anyone else's rights, while others do. This is where it comes down to a simply societal interpretation of what is right and what is not.
    You have to prove that homosexual marriage is harming you or society in some way. You can't simply make an assertion that it is/does without proof. The pro-gm side can show how homosexual marriage can benefit society, so to counter, you would have to show that harm will be caused to society by homosexual marriage and that the harm would be less desirable than the benefits to society as a whole.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Well, and that's a good point.

    Whether or not someone is a pedophile is probably also somewhat genetic.

    I think the line in the sand gets drawn where the question of, "Does this harm someone else or society" is answered affirmatively.

    The reality is that homosexuality is not harmful to society, nor to any individual rights the rest of the citizenry are entitled to.

    For deviations or "abnormalities" that are harmful (such as pedophilia) the answer is that we must try to prevent it.

    I don't think the line in the sand is determined by whether or not we're genetically predisposed one way or the other. The only reasonable place to draw the line is when it impacts society negatively.

    In which case homosexuality would not qualify as it doesn't infringe upon anyone else's individual rights and does not degrade society in any substantive way.
    What happens when groups begin trying to redefine pedophilia? Is a 22 year old student sleeping with a willing 15 year old student pedophilia? There are a lot of variables in there that can be "redefined".

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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You have to prove that homosexual marriage is harming you or society in some way. You can't simply make an assertion that it is/does without proof. The pro-gm side can show how homosexual marriage can benefit society, so to counter, you would have to show that harm will be caused to society by homosexual marriage and that the harm would be less desirable than the benefits to society as a whole.
    actually the burden of proof lies with those who are attempting to change the laws.

  5. #1565
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not necessarily. The government could use the valid argument that they need to draw a limit somewhere
    Gosh that sounds like a familiar phrase, I seem to have heard it somewhere before... I think it was an anti-SSM person! "We have to draw a line somewhere..."

    It is a much more difficult argument when you consider the complications that would inherently come from polygamy marriage anyway. Homosexual marriage would still just involve 2 people, as heterosexual marriage does. No extra legal complications come from allowing 2 homosexuals to get married.
    If two lesbians marry and one of them has a child through artificial insemination, or the "assistance" of a male "Friend", whose baby is it? Hers alone, or is it a "product of the marriage"? Does the "sperm donor" have a say? What about a woman playing "host mother" for a male gay couple? A recent case where a lesbian couple split up and one of them had a kid, she "converted" to hetero... the other former partner sued to keep her from taking her little girl to a Christian church because of their "anti gay positions"... yeah it can get a smidge more complicated than the traditional forms of marriage too, mainly because of that third-party-reproduction issue I've mentioned.

    So you DO think that government has a right to limit other people's right to marry according to their wishes then? You just draw the line in a different place...
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-16-10 at 10:11 PM.

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  6. #1566
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If you support the right to gay marriage, how can you not support the right to polygamous marriage? Don't they have a right to be happy too? Don't they have a right to love according to their nature and enjoy the benefits of marriage just like gays? Currently they are persecuted and outlawed, doesn't that qualify as injustice and discrimination? And aren't you stereotyping polygamous persons as child molesters just because of a handful of high-profile cases?

    I thought everyone was supposed to have equal access to the benefits of lawful marriage, and here I find you're discriminating against polygamists!
    Wow! Misrepresent my argument much?

    First, I never said that all polygamous persons are child molesters. There certainly is evidence to show that some people who believe strongly in polygamy, also take young girls as wives (legal or not). Most of our society does not find this okay. Especially when it seems that the girls are taught to believe that it is their proper place in life from birth. However, there certainly are polyamorous people and people of other religious beliefs that are okay with polygamy that are only interested in having a mutual, loving relationship with other consenting adults.

    Second, try to actually read some of my arguments, rather than trying to get all up in arms about me discriminating against someone. I am not automatically failing to that it would be wrong to give them the benefits of marriage. I am saying that it is not as simple as allowing homosexuals to get married. I have weighed the cost of allowing homosexuals to marry to the benefits of allowing homosexuals to get married, to both the people involved and society. The benefits definitely outweigh any costs.

    I was all for polygamy being legal, but even before Alastor pointed out some extra problems and possible unsavory uses of such, I could see problems with allowing polygamy. There is no way that it is as simple as allowing gay marriage.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #1567
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, but the Bible does say it's unnatural. The followers of Christianity and believers in the bible are greatly influenced by what is written in it. If it is genetically proven that the bible's assumption that homosexuality is unnatural is proven false, then organized Christian religions have a lot of problems on their hands.

    The main argument against legitimizing or legalizing homosexuality is that it is unnatural and they they should not be entitled to the rights and privileges of those that follow a "natural" or "legitimate" lifestyle. If people are in fact born gay just as they are born Caucasian or male or female, then it is, in fact, discrimination to deny them these rights and privileges.
    Not even close. Absolute scientific proof that homosexuality was 100% genetic wouldn't even phase most religious folk. The most popular belief I know of is that Adam and Eve were created perfect, and that sin has corrupted the human genome. Naturally, man was flawless, and flaws are the unnatural result of sin passed down through generations. The faithful would find the discovery of a "homosexuality gene" only further proof of the convictions they already hold.

    Being born with unnatural desires is just one of the trials that we are given, but with faith we can turn from our sinful inclinations blah blah blah etc... Proof that people are born with a certain impulse doesn't mean that we should condone them acting upon it.

    For example, if it could be proven that pedophiles and a strong genetic predisposition to have sex with prepubescent children that doesn't mean we should let them do so, much less grant them legal privileges associated with their illness.

    Now I am sure, as is always the case when pedophilia is brought into a homosexuality thread, there will be plenty of folk saying that pedophilia is nothing like homosexuality. But here's the thing. They both are sexual preferences. The difference is not that one is "natural" and the other is "unnatural," but rather that one is between consenting adults, and one is not.

    That is really the only issue here, is whether or not the government has any business concerning itself with what transpires between consenting adults. Whether it is a choice or not is irrelevant with regards to whether it is a moral impulse to act on, or one that should be discriminated against.

  8. #1568
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Wow! Misrepresent my argument much?
    Probably less than people have misrepresented mine.




    I was all for polygamy being legal, but even before Alastor pointed out some extra problems and possible unsavory uses of such, I could see problems with allowing polygamy. There is no way that it is as simple as allowing gay marriage.
    I think it is hypocritical to criticize someone for having reservations about SSM, then turn around and express reservations about polygamy or really almost any other "alternative" form of marriage. If you're going to kick over generations of common practice for the sake of one tiny minority, I don't think you can justify denying another just because it might be more complicated.

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  9. #1569
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Gosh that sounds like a familiar phrase, I seem to have heard it somewhere before... I think it was an anti-SSM person! "We have to draw a line somewhere..."



    If two lesbians marry and one of them has a child through artificial insemination, or the "assistance" of a male "Friend", whose baby is it? Hers alone, or is it a "product of the marriage"? Does the "sperm donor" have a say? What about a woman playing "host mother" for a male gay couple? A recent case where a lesbian couple split up and one of them had a kid, she "converted" to hetero... the other former partner sued to keep her from taking her little girl to a Christian church because of their "anti gay positions"... yeah it can get a smidge more complicated than the traditional forms of marriage too, mainly because of that third-party-reproduction issue I've mentioned.

    So you DO think that government has a right to limit other people's right to marry according to their wishes then? You just draw the line in a different place...
    Really? I recently recall an argument about a mother and father and their church choices. Also, there are the cases when a heterosexual couple uses a sperm donor or a surrogate mother or even just adopt, and later have complications concerning the parental rights pertaining to biological parenthood versus who is legally raising the child and/or been in the child's life the most. The issues you mentioned have come up with heterosexual couples also. However, I don't recall an issue (although, granted I could be wrong) where three people were all raising a child as their child, not even really informing or caring about who the child's actual biological parents are. (Think My Two Dad's situation) The three live together in love with each other and the child calls all three mom or dad (dependent only on their sex). In such a case, it would be a lot more complicated than two separate parties raising a child, especially since the child is most likely going to know why they have at least two of one parent.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #1570
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    Re: Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Not even close. Absolute scientific proof that homosexuality was 100% genetic wouldn't even phase most religious folk. The most popular belief I know of is that Adam and Eve were created perfect, and that sin has corrupted the human genome. Naturally, man was flawless, and flaws are the unnatural result of sin passed down through generations. The faithful would find the discovery of a "homosexuality gene" only further proof of the convictions they already hold.

    Being born with unnatural desires is just one of the trials that we are given, but with faith we can turn from our sinful inclinations blah blah blah etc... Proof that people are born with a certain impulse doesn't mean that we should condone them acting upon it.

    For example, if it could be proven that pedophiles and a strong genetic predisposition to have sex with prepubescent children that doesn't mean we should let them do so, much less grant them legal privileges associated with their illness.

    Now I am sure, as is always the case when pedophilia is brought into a homosexuality thread, there will be plenty of folk saying that pedophilia is nothing like homosexuality. But here's the thing. They both are sexual preferences. The difference is not that one is "natural" and the other is "unnatural," but rather that one is between consenting adults, and one is not.

    That is really the only issue here, is whether or not the government has any business concerning itself with what transpires between consenting adults. Whether it is a choice or not is irrelevant with regards to whether it is a moral impulse to act on, or one that should be discriminated against.
    I don't disagree with you. I think you took my comment as an attack on Christianity, it wasn't.

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